fischerii

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dodidoki

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Would you mind detailing your culture? I've tried twice with this lovely Phrag. and both
attempts failed.
Of course....You can see my culture and result in the pictures.I stand them in 1,5-2 cm deep water, i add water if the previous water almost disappears.I use peters 1/1/1 fertilizer added a few epsom, powered limestone and citric acid( 1/5/0,5 tsp to 1 kg peters fertilizer.I use 400 uS solution for waterings with rain water, I measure the water ec under plants every time,if it runs over 500 uS, next time i use only weak fertilizer( cca 150 uS).Media is orchiata, 25 mm and i fill the space between bark with 3 mm perlite.
 

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When you put your fischeri side by side with your schlimii, do you see a difference other than maybe a little more color in the fischeri? Are you ready to accept fischeri as schlimii, just maybe with a little more color? Do they grow and bloom the same (including the same time of year) for you?
 

dodidoki

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Thanks, fischerii is more compact, darker .Plant is only 10-15 cm ls, schlimii is often more than 30 cm ls.I think schlimii has closer relative, manzurii.Fischerii has a strange character: often can be seen that there is no staminode.
 

dodidoki

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eg the same plant, previous blooming
 

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FrankRC

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Thanks, fischerii is more compact, darker .Plant is only 10-15 cm ls, schlimii is often more than 30 cm ls.I think schlimii has closer relative, manzurii.Fischerii has a strange character: often can be seen that there is no staminode.
All populations of schlimii, which this is, have plants that demonstrate a wide range in vegetative characteristics, which are not only variable throughout natural populations, they are also influenced by culture both in situ and in cultivation (phenotypic plasticity). Color is highly variable throughout the entire range. There are flowers without staminodes (not a new species, boisserianum and humboltii also produce flowers without staminodes) in several natural populations. Not one alleged characteristic used to support the proposition of fischeri is unique or stable within any natural population throughout the entire range. That the type material is based on an abnormal flower that does not exist in any natural population is highly problematic. Your flower, while beautiful and well grown, lacks the characters specified in the description of fischeri and does not conform to the type. The name fischeri has gone so far afield of the type material that it has become a horticultural designation for darker colored flowers. If you can get plants that come from parents from the Narino area not far from the river where fischeri is alleged to come from you will see darker, more purple colored flowers. Those are quite spectacular.

I am never a fan of changing name tags. I prefer to add additional name tags to my pots.
 

tomkalina

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Interesting thread. As far as I know, Cribb and Braem still consider Phrag. fischeri and Phrag. schlimii to be separate species.
 

dodidoki

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I m not an expert, I have two "so called" fisheris from two different sources, from Mundiflora and Ecugenera, both produce the same flower. All are tiny plants, max 20 cm ls.On the other hand i have several sclimiis from 3 different sources ( popow, ecugenera, a local nursery), all are large plants, some are more than 50 cm ls, with similar flowers only with few differences.Pics attached.
 

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I think the debate cannot be settled without detailed genetic analysis and there are other similar controversies even within Phragmipedium. Such an analysis requires multiple specimens from natural populations as well as cultured and line bred populations. I think most experienced species growers know that there can be a wide variation in plants and flowers of a species. Trying to decide where a new species begins based just on appearance is difficult. The technology exists to do this, but it is still an effort to get it done and it costs money, which no commercial venture has an incentive to fund.
 
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I think the debate cannot be settled without detailed genetic analysis and there are other similar controversies even within Phragmipedium. Such an analysis requires multiple specimens from natural populations as well as cultured and line bred populations. I think most experienced species growers know that there can be a wide variation in plants and flowers of a species. Trying to decide where a new species begins based just on appearance is difficult. The technology exists to do this, but it is still an effort to get it done and it costs money, which no commercial venture has an incentive to fund.
Crowdsource and find a grad student! Purdue has a stellar lab… in mycology, we have the costs down to $10 per sequence. Uploading and comparison is a sticking point but some nonLuddite can learn it. I remain shocked that this isn’t happening. There’s so much more money in orchids than in mycology.
 

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