CITES - conserving or destroying?

Discussion in 'Orchid Conservation' started by s1214215, Apr 17, 2011.

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  1. Apr 22, 2011 #21

    Howzat

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    Sorry Eric, the question was actually directed to you.
    Yes Xavier is in Ch 15 of "Orchid Fever". I met him last year TIOS 2010 and again at TIOS2011. He now works as Technical Consultant (company representative0 for Orchiata the NZ pine bark company. But in Asia it is being marketed under Besgro.
    If you want to see and meet him, TIOS 2012 is a good bet, but he will be a guest speaker along with Terry Root at the AOC conf in Perth 2012. See its website 19th AOC conf.
     
  2. Apr 22, 2011 #22

    Braem

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    Fallersleben is now part of Wolfsburg
     
  3. Apr 22, 2011 #23

    Braem

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    Since when do burocrats listen? And does anyone really believe that people that have huge salaries will freely admit that what they are doing is nonsense?
     
  4. Apr 22, 2011 #24

    Braem

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    Yes, but you have to read the original. The German translation is terrible ... if fact kind of a scandal as the quotations are translated into nonsense texts.
     
  5. Apr 22, 2011 #25

    Howzat

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    Good to see you, Dr. Braem, get involved in this CITES nonsense.
    Where is Cribb now, the champion of CITES ??? If Phillip Cribb and his colleague de Vogel really think that they are doing their best to conserve orchids, where are all the orchids that they helped to confiscate and destroy in the infamous armed military raids in Europe??? I wonder if they were proud of their achievement. And I hope that they thought that the book "Orchid Fever" was malicious. If they did think that, why the hell did not they take Eric Hansen to court???? Their inaction made me wonder if what Eric Hansen wrote, was extremely correct. Why did not they raid Xavier's establishment as well, as apparently Xavier was one that escaped the raid. Were they afraid of Xavier because he may know a lot about the raiders??
    I am sorry guys from the CITES establishment, for the last 10 years after reading Eric Hansen's book, I had very negative views on CITES operational matters and antics. CITES should look at the long term solution of conservation (as I said : conservation through increased number of species plants in private collection, rather than willy nilly confiscate orchid species , is the way to go). Look at the number of rothschildianum and sanderianum in private and commercial collection, which make 1. a better quality through line breeding, 2. who in their right mind would collect those inferior species at big cost in the wild if you can get a better quality at cheap price ??? The works of Terry Root, other American breeders as well as Europeans, Taiwanese and Japanese breeders should be recognised as CONSERVATION and the CITES's actions are in fact HINDERING CONSERVATION if not DESTROYING.
     
  6. Apr 22, 2011 #26

    NYEric

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    A person's salary has nothing to do with their nonsense or incompetence. If they can do the job and are overpaid,then everyone wins.
     
  7. Apr 22, 2011 #27

    Braem

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    Cribb has been retired. He has a desk in his former secretary's office ... but he is still a "Kew Man" ... and that means: everything he does is legal .... I don't know whether he is proud ... but he is as arrogant as ever. Xavier was not involved in the German business and I am not sure what is role was in France ... you would have to ask him about that.
    The German CITES authorities are just as always ... but what do you expect ... But they are civil servants, and saying anything bad about them may end in a fine ... no matter how true it is. I guess I have always been the only one who didn't (and doesn't) care about their threats. But they did ruin the orchid business over here.
     
  8. Apr 22, 2011 #28

    Braem

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    The only winners in the CITES game are the CITES people, so why should they change their habits.
     
  9. Apr 22, 2011 #29

    NYEric

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    How about if someone from USA sends the Deutsch authorities a nasty-gram and vice versa!:evil:
     
  10. Apr 23, 2011 #30

    Rick

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    One thing to consider is that government beuracracies will lag the commercial and scientific community by several years. Note that P rothchilidianum and sanderianum were recognized species for at least 50 to 75 (maybe even 100) years before anyone knew how to propagate in sufficient numbers to supply a commercial market. Up through the 50's to 80's orchid collections were like stamp collections. Hardly anything was propagated and only a small fraction of jungle collected plants survived for any significant length of time for divisions to become available. Back in the early 1900's collectors would kill each other and burn down swaths of forrest so competitors would be left with no chance to find anything but scorched earth. The conservation legacy of the orchid hobby is not a pretty one.

    Serious commercial scale breeding is a relatively recent event. I can recall back to 2002 that the sanderianum seedlings I got from Sheerwood orchids were first generation from a wild importation of the "rediscovered" source of wild stocks. Now the market is close to flooded of blooming size F1's, and F2 seedlings are up for sale for probably a fraction of the price I payed in 2002.

    In the meantime CITES is trying to catch up with attitudes and science from the 1970's
     
  11. Apr 23, 2011 #31
    The problem with CITES is its inflexibility. Yes, in some respects it worked, in that paphs and phrags are being propagated seriously now instead of just being collected. Yet the CITES rules didn't take into account the probability of new species being discovered. By preventing their immediate distribution for propagation, they guaranteed a smugglers market. I wouldn't object to CITES as much if it hadn't declared the entire genera of paphs and phrags forbidden. It should have been done species by species, according to their needs. Prior to 1990, only P. druryi and I think rothchildianum were listed.
     
  12. Apr 23, 2011 #32

    Braem

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    In Germany, those who have a say in CITES are lawyers. The lower charges are civil servants that have been switched to CITES offices because they were redundant in other placed but could not be retired because of their "Beamtenstatus". The rest are customs officers who have just passed grade ten (if at all). They don't know anything about nature, let alone species, and they don't care. What do you expect from a group of people like that.... They will never catch up on anything in respect to knowledge ... and why should they ... they have a well-paid job for life.

    And just on another note: CITES for animals didn't work either. But that is another story. CITES was and is nonsense.
     
  13. Apr 23, 2011 #33

    Howzat

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    Lawyer, lawyer and lawyers, this was mentioned by ERic Hansen of being the chiefs of CITES in Europe. Yes, Xavier explained verbally at TIOS 2010, about the European raids in general and in France in particular. He said he was a young custom officer at the time. I don't think that he likes Cribb either.
    Was Eric Hansen spot on or not in writing his book?? If not, they (Cribb cs) should have sued Eric immediately. But time has lapsed and since Cribb and de Vogel did not take any action at all, then I have to presume that Eric Hansen was spot on with the stories in his book.
    Xavier and Terry Root are two of 19th AOC guest speakers on Paphiopedilum. I wish that you (Dr. Braem) can be here as well. I am sure that the three of you would be one hell of a big drawcard. A point of interest : our state government (Western Australia) has viewed the 19th AOC conference seriously and gives the committee a grant of $200,000 to make sure it will be the biggest AOC conference.
     
  14. Apr 23, 2011 #34

    paphreek

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  15. Apr 23, 2011 #35

    Braem

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    Well, ..... there would be a few obstacles ... but maybe you can email me ...
    drbraem@t-online.de
     
  16. Apr 23, 2011 #36

    Rick

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    Maybe the Vietnamese government thinks its people can make a better living selling smuggled wild dug plants by discouraging captive breeding. Even if Vietnam starts legal propagation and trade, how long do you think it would take big and small breeders in the US (or Australia) to quit wasting time and shipping costs to import legal plants and produce their own in the US. In the species market, it really only takes a handful of plants with today's flasking technology to generate enough to supply the market. As long as the parent stock is illegal, it suppresses breeding efforts in the US.
     
  17. Apr 23, 2011 #37

    Rick

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    Probably an enforcement nightmare since out of bloom paphs species all look the same to enforcement officials.
     
  18. Apr 24, 2011 #38
    Which is exactly how the smugglers do it....who can tell the species apart from hybrids when not in bloom? How many vietnamese species have cleared customs by being labelled as hybrids? How many hangianums made it out as emersonii, malipoense as jackii, and helenae as barbigerum? (It actually was sold years ago as "barbigerum v. helenae".) Its an enforcement nightmare regardless.
     
  19. Apr 24, 2011 #39

    Rick

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    That's also why the rescue centers get loaded up with hybrid phales:sob:
     
  20. Apr 24, 2011 #40

    Braem

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    Yes, but that proves once again that CITES is good for nothing.
     

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