Ca and Mg again

[SlipperFan]

Thanks, Lance. All of what you just said makes sense to me. I'm not a scientist, and can only say what my own experience is. I'm not subjecting my orchids to extreme cold, but I have observed better root growth and stronger plants since switching to k-lite a year and a half ago. I'm doing a lot of my re-potting now. I have quite a few Paphs that haven't been repotted since 2011, but they were in orchiata and non-organic media. Although many old roots were rotted, there are lots of new roots since changing fertilizers. So I'm planning to stick with k-lite.

 

[tomkalina]

Thanks Lance; your explanation makes a lot of sense. We've been fertilizing with either K-Lite or Wuxal Calcium (10-0-0 10 Ca) every 6-7 days and flushing with a very dilute solution of Dyna-Gro Mag Pro (2-15-4) every 6 weeks. We batch mix our fertilizer solutions in a 55 gal plastic drum of RO water, add a gallon of Chicago City Water (Lake Michigan source) for the micros, then add an appropriate amount of either fertilizer to reach a TDS not to exceed 100 mg/L. This irrigation solution is then pumped out of the drum with a submersible pump to water the plants. I think the equivalent fertilizer dosage in teaspoons/gal ends up being somewhere around 1/10 tsp/gal. . Seems like a lot of trouble, but so far the results support the theory that low K at low TDS feed rates works.....

 

[Stone]

Thanks Lance; your explanation makes a lot of sense.

Tom, what ''explanation'' are you refering to? I would love someone to explain orchid physiology and ecology to me. Just to make sure I read it 3 times. Perhaps I'm a bit thick, but to me, Lance has explained absolutley nothing. Amazing BTW why do you feel the need to use dynagrow?

 

[cnycharles]

K-lite is not a finished product, it is the initial stage of a work in progress. It will not work for all conditions and I've read here statements that for specific conditions other fertilizers would work better. It's stated openly by those who are testing to see where it does and doesn't work, because again there is no one fertilizer that will work for the many thousands of orchids that are in cultivation. It is documented in South America that mists from sea water rising up over the mountains drop dew and nutrients onto cloud forest species. There isn't necessarily any stem flow where there isn't any rain; nutrients come from different sources for different epiphytic and terrestrial zones, and there is no way that amounts and ratios would be the same in these different areas. Like mentioned, it would be extremely difficult to test nutrients for all of these different conditions

Likely k-lite isn't the perfect final thing, it's something agreed upon as a starting point for testing, to see what does and doesn't work, let's move forward and see where it has and hasn't worked, and see how it can be tweaked towards a better tool for growing instead of arguing about it like it's expected to be the finished holy grail


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[ALToronto]

Thank you Charles. I use K-lite for orchids in organic and neutral media, but not on my living walls, which are chemically similar to limestone cliffs. I wish there were a low K product with urea/ammonia source N, but short of buying individual ingredients and blending my own, the best I can get is 25-10-10. I think my next step will be to encourage moss growth on the walls and create a N-fixing environment.

 

[Stone]

see how it can be tweaked towards a better tool for growing instead of arguing about it like it's expected to be the finished holy grail

Well that's exactly what I think. From all the available data it should be tweaked to something like this: IMO
*Increase the K to at least 5 times what it is.
*Reduce the calcium nitrate.
*increase the ammonium to somewhere close to 30% of the nitrate.
*increase the Sulphur to about 2%
So you end up with something like 12% total N (NH4 30-40% N03 60-70%)
P remains the same K 5% (but not really that important. 3 to 7% probably ok). or roughly 10-1-5

*To achieve this you might need a 2 pack system. (Even better with a 2 pack so you can adjust the ammonium and potassium as you like.)

This will make a better general purpase orchid fertilizer.

 

[Stone]

the best I can get is 25-10-10.

The same K/N ratio as I mentioned above. but P too high

 

[Paul]

Well that's exactly what I think. From all the available data it should be tweaked to something like this: IMO
*Increase the K to at least 5 times what it is.
*Reduce the calcium nitrate.
*increase the ammonium to somewhere close to 30% of the nitrate.

So you end up with something like 12% total N (NH4 30-40% N03 60-70%)
P remains the same K 5% (but not really that important. 3 to 7% probably ok). or roughly 10-1-5

*To achieve this you might need a 2 pack system. (Even better with a 2 pack so you can adjust the ammonium and potassium as you like.)

This will make a better general purpase orchid fertilizer.

Hi,

Looks like what I'm fertilizing my plants with...

approx: 35 ppm N (45% NH4+ 55% N03-)
6.5 ppm P (P2O5)
7 ppm K (K2O)
17 ppm Ca
8 ppm Mg (as MgO)
+ algamic bionova 1ml/10l

pH is 7 and EC 300µS/cm

 

[gonewild]

The idea of the basic K-lite formula is to use it and adjust as needed.
"As needed" should be based on observations of how the plants grow using it.

Has anyone using K-lite seen a need to increase the potassium level?

Has anyone using K-lite seen a need to decrease the phosphorous level? (that would be a result of raising the K level).

 

[ALToronto]

The idea of the basic K-lite formula is to use it and adjust as needed.
"As needed" should be based on observations of how the plants grow using it.

Has anyone using K-lite seen a need to increase the potassium level?

Has anyone using K-lite seen a need to decrease the phosphorous level? (that would be a result of raising the K level).

Lance, I don't think it's all that straightforward. My living wall plants did not do well with K-lite. I have no idea what exactly was the problem, but I suspect it wasn't one thing. They do better with 25-10-10, even with excessive P which is causing algae growth on the wall and is probably also feeding the mushrooms that are growing in the branches.

The only way to determine conclusively how much K is needed is to run a multi-factor experiment which will test for the individual main effects (N, P, K, Ca/Mg) as well as their interactions. That's four factors (assuming Ca and Mg are kept in the same ratio and are varied as a pair). That's a lot of different formulations, while keeping all other factors constant (temp, humidity, medium, watering schedule, etc).

I've offered before, and I'm still willing to design this experiment, as long as someone can 'donate' a bunch of plants and is prepared to be extremely diligent and organised for a year or two, not confusing the formulations. Don't we have some people here with access to lab facilities?

 

[gonewild]

Lance, I don't think it's all that straightforward. My living wall plants did not do well with K-lite. I have no idea what exactly was the problem, but I suspect it wasn't one thing. They do better with 25-10-10, even with excessive P which is causing algae growth on the wall and is probably also feeding the mushrooms that are growing in the branches.

I assume the K-lite formula to be aimed at growing in conventional media and containers or mounts. As I recall didn't you make the walls out of cement? pH of root area?

The only way to determine conclusively how much K is needed is to run a multi-factor experiment which will test for the individual main effects (N, P, K, Ca/Mg) as well as their interactions. That's four factors (assuming Ca and Mg are kept in the same ratio and are varied as a pair). That's a lot of different formulations, while keeping all other factors constant (temp, humidity, medium, watering schedule, etc).

That is what is needed and would be great to see the results. But in the end it still would not address the effects of the nutrients under the different conditions growers maintain. The informal group trial of different people using K-lite should return an answer that is useful to orchid hobbyists, shouldn't it?
And if you keep all the environmental conditions constant wouldn't that limit the value of the nutrient results to those specific conditions?

I've offered before, and I'm still willing to design this experiment, as long as someone can 'donate' a bunch of plants and is prepared to be extremely diligent and organised for a year or two, not confusing the formulations. Don't we have some people here with access to lab facilities?

A year or two trial would not give the answer concerning long term plant health. That issue is when a plant that has several years or more growth and is doing well just suddenly declines or gets rot for what seems like no reason.
Then you have the problem of how you measure the result. Dry weight? Beauty? amount of flowers? I think somehow a judgement criteria needs to be accepted as to what a "healthy" plant is.

I don't see the K-lite fertilizer use as a trial to prove orchids need less K but rather a trial to determine if lower K applications generally increases the growth quality of generic orchid collections. So for me the results people report about K-lite have even more horticulture value than results from a well organized controlled trial.

I would love to see you design a trial and see the results, because that would tell us if low K should or could be applied to commercial forcing of orchid plants.
But commercial forcers of Phals (and others) have no interest in growing a plant that has a long life after sale, they are designed to be disposed of and replaced.

I'm interested in all the results from all sources.

 

[ALToronto]

I assume the K-lite formula to be aimed at growing in conventional media and containers or mounts. As I recall didn't you make the walls out of cement? pH of root area?

It's a low pH mineral composite. The root area pH started at 8.5-9, but went down to 6.5 within a month. The pH wasn't the problem, I think it was more an excess of Ca and insufficient organic media to help 'digest' the nitrate. In any event, the PlantProd did the trick. That doesn't mean that it was the best possible solution.

 

[gonewild]

It's a low pH mineral composite. The root area pH started at 8.5-9, but went down to 6.5 within a month. The pH wasn't the problem, I think it was more an excess of Ca and insufficient organic media to help 'digest' the nitrate. In any event, the PlantProd did the trick. That doesn't mean that it was the best possible solution.

Curious. did you start out using K-lite and for how long did you use it before changing?
Did any algae or other things start growing before switching?

Now it would be interesting to see what would happen if you switched back to K-lite. It may have had something to do with the base material stabilizing and leaching out whatever minerals it is made of.

 

[ALToronto]

I switched quickly because with K-lite, the pH of my irrigation water was above 8.5 - and that's with RO water. It wasn't going to bring down the pH of the wall. Time to give it a try again.

 

[gonewild]

I switched quickly because with K-lite, the pH of my irrigation water was above 8.5 - and that's with RO water. It wasn't going to bring down the pH of the wall. Time to give it a try again.

It will be interesting to see the result of switching back to K-lite. Maybe the lower K level will allow a better balance of the micro fauna and the algae will be less.

Prior to putting the plants on the wall had you been fertilizing them with K-lite?

 

[ALToronto]

It will be interesting to see the result of switching back to K-lite. Maybe the lower K level will allow a better balance of the micro fauna and the algae will be less.

Prior to putting the plants on the wall had you been fertilizing them with K-lite?

Yes, I had been giving them K-lite and occasional seaweed extract, and they were doing very well. That's why it felt so wrong to go to a conventional fert.

That said, with my most recent wall, the one I posted about a few days ago, I put a couple of catts that were stagnating in their pots, in bark and coconut chunk mix. They took off on the branches, and I just spotted a sheath on the newest growth of one of them. Just goes to show that there are no simple, single factor solutions - would these catts have been struggling with K-lite if they had not been potted in coconut?

 

[Ray]

I switched quickly because with K-lite, the pH of my irrigation water was above 8.5 - and that's with RO water. It wasn't going to bring down the pH of the wall. Time to give it a try again.

Was that a large-batch solution, or a small grab from the powder? I ask, because we know it's not the most finely ground or uniformly dispersed material, and when I make up a concentrate with several pounds of powder in RO, I am consistently seeing a pH in the 5.0-5.5 range (Greencare adds citric acid to aid dissolution in stock tanks).

 

[Brabantia]

That said, with my most recent wall, the one I posted about a few days ago, I put a couple of catts that were stagnating in their pots, in bark and coconut chunk mix. They took off on the branches, and I just spotted a sheath on the newest growth of one of them.

This fact is not exceptional we are on the season during which most of the Cattleyas are starting their new shoots.

 

[Brabantia]

Was that a large-batch solution, or a small grab from the powder? I ask, because we know it's not the most finely ground or uniformly dispersed material, and when I make up a concentrate with several pounds of powder in RO, I am consistently seeing a pH in the 5.0-5.5 range (Greencare adds citric acid to aid dissolution in stock tanks).

I do not believe it is the added citric acid which makes that the pH of the solution is acid. Since a few years I make all my fertilizers myself (yes I like experimenting). I was never able to conceive(design) a fertilizer which did not give a slightly acid reaction in deionized water. Citric acid is probably used as a chelator.

 

[tomkalina]

A pH of 8.5 sounds high if all your adding to RO water is K-Lite. We add 1-2 cups of K-Lite concentrate (2# dissolved in 5 gallons of RO water) to our 55 gal drum of RO and get a pH of 7.0-7.3 (Average of 12 samples over a two month period). If your feed water has a high pH, is it possible the 8.5 pH you're getting in the RO effluent may be due to membrane failure?