Are these leaves too yellow?

[dodidoki]

Another source of the confusion is if a vendor buys a good quality plant, rename it and sells under a new name. Eg. I was at the Dresden EOC few year ago, the Grand Prix landed at a roth, it was very nice plant, indeed.The name was "Anja". Later i got the info about the plant, really it was a division from Orchid Inn, original name was "Fine Five" x "Atticus".

 

[Roth]

Well that's the point, I know a lot of those things, New Horizon x Raptor, Canadian Club x Idontremember, and others bloomed around the world. Until today, none of those plants has bloomed even remotely close to one of any of those parents.

The ones from Tony are the Taiwanese generic. You can buy them as well in Europe, either with US pedigree, or German pedigree, that's up to your taste. I posted 1-2 as a joke on my Facebook. They are very constant in their 'flower quality', which is awful.

For a New Horizon x Raptor, I saw myself recently a couple plants too. The plant size and leaf shape are all wrong for the parents, I don't even mention the flowers that do not even come close. Plus, Raptor realy progeny has usually a very good shape...

Look at what Raptor gives as a pollen parent, note that it is (Lady Isabel x roth) x roth 'Raptor', not yet Sunlight Sky Roths, but the parent...

https://ameblo.jp/yossy1961/entry-12819794788.html


Then you can realize that those New Horizon x Raptor have nothing of their pedigree. About orchids, yes it is a business, and if you do the things properly, you need to accept to pay a top price for a motherplant, then wait 1-2 years to have seedlings to deflask. Then at least 5 years ( I do that in 2 1/2 years, but the cost and care is higher though...) to have adult plants, etc... So from a 'real' motherplant to a plant that can be sold, it takes 2-5 years depending on the species, even at the seedling stage.

The option of buying those generic 5US rothschildianum in Taiwan, or urbanianum for 4 eur 'adults', or delenatii vinicolor for 5 eur 'adults', or generic Complex Paphiopedilum for 6.5 eur in flower pot plant, and selling them after some days is of course economically much more interesting. Not honest, but that's how to make a fast profit.

Most hobbyists will have as well :

- Not good enough skills to grow the seedlings to blooming size. In the dustbin, they won't bloom and prove they are something else...
- If they have, they either ' did not win the genetic lottery', or 'did not grow them well enough'
- If they still scream, the plant can be replaced/refunded. Out of 100 seedlings at let's say 40US = 4000 US if the trader has to refund even 10 x 40Us = 400 US out of 100 plants he paid 500US max, it is still a great profit...

Very few pro growers even can comment about this, because one needs to bloom a lot of plants to know what is possible, and what is not. But the roths I see blooming with those pedigrees are 100% certain not to be from the parents said, there is no discussion about it...

That's how the life works, in... real life.

 

[hkunberger]

You mentioned that the plant size and leaves are all wrong on these plants. My plants are too young to bloom yet, so I don’t know what the flowers will be like. Are there specific things to look for with the leaves? Thanks

 

[BrucherT]

This is absolutely fascinating. I think any roth is a good roth but the line-breeding is always interesting. I gave away my “fancy” ones because they didn’t grow as well as my legacy plant. I remember “Tarantula” was claimed as a parent. I should ask the folks to whom I gave them if they’ve bloomed; it’s been long enough.

 

[Roth]

We will add another story, for many people to spend a nice day. In the 90s the Orchid Zone released a lot of sanderianum 'Deep Pockets' x 'Jacob's Ladder'. I have been the first one to bloom them, and it was PEOY. When I told Terry Root he was kind of angry. When the Taiwanese bloomed a year or so later PEOY out of them, it started to be a bit of a concern.

The story is simple. The Orchid Zone had 2 famous sanderianum motherplants, pictured everywhere. They did not give any progeny. So they bought flasks of 'sanderianum' from Norris Powell... that turned out to PEOY. But in any case, the flasks from Norris could never, ever, be Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder as parents...

 

[LukeC]

We will add another story, for many people to spend a nice day. In the 90s the Orchid Zone released a lot of sanderianum 'Deep Pockets' x 'Jacob's Ladder'. I have been the first one to bloom them, and it was PEOY. When I told Terry Root he was kind of angry. When the Taiwanese bloomed a year or so later PEOY out of them, it started to be a bit of a concern.

The story is simple. The Orchid Zone had 2 famous sanderianum motherplants, pictured everywhere. They did not give any progeny. So they bought flasks of 'sanderianum' from Norris Powell... that turned out to PEOY. But in any case, the flasks from Norris could never, ever, be Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder as parents...

I remember seeing a picture of Jacobs ladder in the orchid review when I was a kid and being stunned that such a plant existed. I was desperate to own one, Sanderianum that is, I knew I would never get that actual plant, took me another 20 years into my late 20's to get one, but I was very pleased when i did. Is there any where in The US that supplies good paphs to the UK?

 

[Tony]

Dave at Paph Paradise would be the man to talk to. I don't know if he exports directly or if you would need a broker of some sort but you'll get the best Paphs in the US from him.

 

[LukeC]

Dave at Paph Paradise would be the man to talk to. I don't know if he exports directly or if you would need a broker of some sort but you'll get the best Paphs in the US from him.

Yeah, I have reached out to Paph paradise, I would love to get some plants from there, hopefully in the future it will be possible.

 

[Royal Rea]

We will add another story, for many people to spend a nice day. In the 90s the Orchid Zone released a lot of sanderianum 'Deep Pockets' x 'Jacob's Ladder'. I have been the first one to bloom them, and it was PEOY. When I told Terry Root he was kind of angry. When the Taiwanese bloomed a year or so later PEOY out of them, it started to be a bit of a concern.

The story is simple. The Orchid Zone had 2 famous sanderianum motherplants, pictured everywhere. They did not give any progeny. So they bought flasks of 'sanderianum' from Norris Powell... that turned out to PEOY. But in any case, the flasks from Norris could never, ever, be Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder as parents...

That really is a bit dodgy, selling on other nursery flasks as your own and then not turning out to be correct, then as the truth begins to come out feigning anger.

 

[NEslipper]

This is all concerning to hear, I have a couple of Roth seedlings I paid a lot of money for, King Kong x Sandy and Knight Sunshine x Tarantula. Is the likelihood then, that what I have paid for and what I have received are unlikely to be the same? The attached Roth has New Horizon x Raptor on the label, I have to admit I expected it to be larger with better colour, I put this down to it being a first bloom seedling, but now I am having my doubts. Thoughts?

That's one of the better New Horizon x Raptor seedlings I've seen posted. Congrats!

 

[LukeC]

That's one of the better New Horizon x Raptor seedlings I've seen posted. Congrats!

Thank you, hopefully it will improve the next time it flowers, that was 2022. With luck it will flower towards the end of this year or early next year.

 

[spujr]

Dave at Paph Paradise would be the man to talk to. I don't know if he exports directly or if you would need a broker of some sort but you'll get the best Paphs in the US from him.

I bought a lot of the ones Dave had. He gets them from reputed grower in Tiawan.

'Deep Pockets' is still around, TON had it last year for a pretty penny. I don't doubt it's authenticity but by now the stuff coming out if Tiawan is probably much better... assuming you get it from a honest grower.

 

[Roth]

'Deep Pockets' is still around, TON had it last year for a pretty penny. I don't doubt it's authenticity but by now the stuff coming out if Tiawan is probably much better... assuming you get it from a honest grower.

Mmmmh for certain Deep Pockets died a long time ago... though it would not deter certain persons to sell 'divisions' of course....

 

[GuRu]

Lot of interesting information in this thread, but .....

Another source of the confusion is if a vendor buys a good quality plant, rename it and sells under a new name. Eg. I was at the Dresden EOC few year ago, the Grand Prix landed at a roth, it was very nice plant, indeed.The name was "Anja". Later i got the info about the plant, really it was a division from Orchid Inn, original name was "Fine Five" x "Atticus".

..... in this case I can't see anything wrong. 'Anja' is the cultivar name of this single plant and has nothing to do with its parentage or pedigree. As far as I know you can als give a division of "Fine Five" x "Atticus" the cultivar name 'Anja' because all prodigies of "Fine Five" x "Atticus" might be slightly different and the cultivar name means a special plant out of the pool of prodigies.
But one thing is for sure .... he can't sell many plants named 'Anja' .... but 'Anja' x self or 'Anja' x 'XY' this should be possible.

 

[LukeC]

Use an urea-based fertilizer on it, and it will green up instant.

It is indeed not the normal leaf color, and the plant suffers a lot, the newer leaves are getting smaller and smaller, plus there is an intense chlorosis.

It would be helpful to know what kind of fertilizer you use and the pH/potting mix. As well, rothschildianum plants of all sizes hate nitrate nitrogen as a main nitrogen source, and usually responds by extremely chlorotic, yellowish leaves like that. K-Lite, MSU or RainMix would certainly induce this kind of leaf bleaching...

Your advice worked a treat, thank you. The plant has greened up, has grow a full new leaf and another is on the way all in 4 months.

 

[katzenhai2]

Your advice worked a treat, thank you. The plant has greened up, has grow a full new leaf and another is on the way all in 4 months.

Now it looks healthy.

How often do you fertilize? In the past I fertilized every other week. When I started fertilizing twice a week (>100 ppm N per week) the leaves became much much broader (double in size) and therefore larger - on all Paphs.

 

[LukeC]

Now it looks healthy.

How often do you fertilize? In the past I fertilized every other week. When I started fertilizing twice a week (>100 ppm N per week) the leaves became much much broader (double in size) and therefore larger - on all Paphs.

Currently I am the same, once every other week, with pure rainwater in-between. I will give your twice weekly approach a go on a couple of plants and see what the outcome is.

 

[katzenhai2]

Currently I am the same, once every other week, with pure rainwater in-between. I will give your twice weekly approach a go on a couple of plants and see what the outcome is.

The substrate then potentially salinizes faster. Maybe. To be honest I still have to see what negative side effects this might have in the long term, doing this only since 2 months. Be cautious. But within a month, when the plants are growing, you will immediately see the results of more N - even on young plants. Several have also put on new additional shoots straight away. I interpret this to mean that they now have more energy to "waste" on other things. Justin also switched to fertilizing his plants twice a week and noticed a stronger growth (Orchids 2024). It seems most of the plants you see, even in several nurseries, are chronically undernourished.

I can confirm the same thing with the Urea. Mine were also more chlorotic, like yours. I also administered less N and more nitrate back then.

 

[Justin]

I saw huge improvement in my roths when I went from not feeding much at all, to using Urea-based 30-10-10 @ 1/4 tsp/gal every watering. Results were greener, thicker leaves, greatly reduced leaf tip die back, clumping growths, and consistently higher flower count.

Helped with all my Paphs actually.

 

[Brabantia]

I saw huge improvement in my roths when I went from not feeding much at all, to using Urea-based 30-10-10 @ 1/4 tsp/gal every watering. Results were greener, thicker leaves, greatly reduced leaf tip die back, clumping growths, and consistently higher flower count.

Helped with all my Paphs actually.

It's a well-known fact that nitrate nitrogen causes yellowing of the foliage. I've already discussed this with the manufacturer of AK..NE Rain Mix. To reduce this tendency, the manufacturer adds sulfur in the form of Potassium sulfate. When a solution containing 50 ppm nitrogen is prepared with this fertilizer, the sulfur content is equal to 8.1 ppm S.
For years, I thought that paphios and phragmis and even all orquids only ate nitrate nitrogen. While I had no problem with cattleyas, I wasn't satisfied with Masdevallia Paphios and Phramis. I remembered that 30 or 40 years ago there was no fertilizer available that was very rich in nitrate. Visiting a mass-market grower in Holland, I observed that he had a large stock of 20-20-20 peters in his reserve. For the past two years, I've been using Peters 21-7-21 +Ca and Mg fertilizer. I've noticed a significant improvement in the color of the foliage. Solutions prepared with Peters fertilizers always have an acidic character when prepared with rainwater. I adjust the pH by adding a little tap water (5 to 10%) to obtain a pH of 6.2 - 6.4. As this fertilizer contains urea, even adding city water with a nitrogen content of 50 to 65 ppm still leaves a conductivity of less than 500µS.