Alert: Orchid Polize

[NYEric]

I was discussing things with the propietor of a orchid store and he discussed that another N.E. collector, and member of this site, recently had a delivery of plants from overseas confiscated by the authorities. I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors. It sucks that this whole mess is still going on, especially if the spreading of plants to growers around the world is better than losing them to habitat loss, etc.

 

[likespaphs]

dang it. if only the u.s. would make some rational decisions about cites!

 

[Shiva]

Better to buy a small number of plants at a time. A small package of one or two must have plants attracts much less attention.

 

[goldenrose]

It's a shame in so many ways for the plants. We've had threads/postings as to what the consequences can be, so why take a chance? Play with fire & you're gonna get burned!

 

[Bolero]

I was discussing things with the propietor of a orchid store and he discussed that another N.E. collector, and member of this site, recently had a delivery of plants from overseas confiscated by the authorities. I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors. It sucks that this whole mess is still going on, especially if the spreading of plants to growers around the world is better than losing them to habitat loss, etc.

So your recommendation is to lie and do something illegal? Really?

I am not saying CITES is the right approach but I don't recommend being dishonest with authorities either.

 

[SlipperKing]

It's only logical that the "authorities" would be monitoring internet forum sites such as ours. Like Forest said "Stupid is as Stupid does"

 

[smartie2000]

what a waste of time and money. I have not much else to say....I have had my time and money wasted before (non-orchid related). The American government is wasting your tax dollars on this crap too.

 

[Roth]

It's more complicated than that.

The asians sellers sends a hell of a lot of boxes every month to the USA, Europe, and wherever. There is a part of the boxes that are seized, but on the seller's side, there are no legal risks really - a tip and that's finished - second, the sellers are making so much profit for each box that goes through, that the 'lost ones' are nothing.

Of course, when one box is seized, the complete network is watched, however in China, there are many networks, maybe 20-30 different ones, using many different sending companies and agents FedEx, DHL, UPS, etc... It's a hit or miss.

Generally, except there has been a physical informant that went to the Customs of the USFWS, nothing happens. And for sure, even if the authorities watch the forums, they do not care that much. There are many possible pretenders, many small size shipments, etc...

The thing being that if you ask the sellers in Asia 'everything goes smooth', but based on Kaichen that I happened to know, the rate of seized boxes per year is about 15% on her shipments. She does not care, because she earns far more than enough with the remaining. But the customers are in deep, deep **** afterwards...

Eric, your suggestion is in fact a very bad idea. If a hobbyist gets a box seized, and the box was supposedly for him, he gets a fine, and some problens. If the hobbyist ask a third part, or delivery to the neighbors, etc... it becomes far more criminal, it's like a mafia network, or a 'smuggler network'. Alone, you can loose your plants.

If you involve third part, first they will speak 99.999999999999999% of the time and give your name to the customs, second it means that you really know you do something illegal. Last, it makes a network.

 

[etex]

Whoa! This is some heavy stuff! I don't understand why the AOS doesn't get involved in changing the laws. Seems like political bull!
Doesn't seem right that we are under basically British Law when they were the ones ripping millions of orchids from their habitat at the time they were known as the graveyard for orchids!
It would seem it would be better for the propagation of the species if orchid growers were stewards of the plants that have already been plucked from the wild. That way the species will be cared for and places like Troy Meyers Conservatory can help with dispersal to other orchid growers.

 

[eOrchids]

If someone (outside the orchid world) would just understand if you get rid of strict shipping policies, you will be increasing the survival of thousands of species thru trades, tissue culture and etc.

 

[NYEric]

My recommendation is to be more discreet,...

:ninja:

 

[Paph_LdyMacBeth]

:ninja:

...that and you just wanted an excuse to use the ninja smiley

 

[tenman]

Whoa! This is some heavy stuff! I don't understand why the AOS doesn't get involved in changing the laws. Seems like political bull!

Yes, and it's a major reason many people have left or are disenchanted with the AOS (which has lost over one third of its membership in the last 6-7 years).

If someone (outside the orchid world) would just understand if you get rid of strict shipping policies, you will be increasing the survival of thousands of species thru trades, tissue culture and etc.

But they can't because they're idiots and beaurocrats (same thing, really!).

 

[kentuckiense]

I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure.

That is almost certainly not chain of events. I'm betting a package got inspected and then the "illegal contraband" was found and seized. I highly doubt a USFW person monitored this forum, noticed a US citizen posting "illegal" plants, subpoenaed Slippertalk for his/her IP address, subpoeanaed his/her ISP for his/her street address, and then somehow "screened" all of his/her incoming packages.

use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors.

So that your friends/neighbors could potentially get hit with fines/charges too? If you're going to play with fire, don't include innocent bystanders.

And, I must clarify, I think the USFW interpretation of CITES via the Lacey Act is just as ridiculous and counterproductive as everyone else here thinks.

 

[NYEric]

Don't believe that these things just happen.

 

[kentuckiense]

Don't believe that these things just happen.

And they aren't nearly as cloak-and-dagger as you're trying to present them.

A portion (the % of which I'm unaware) of packages entering the USA are inspected/searched as they enter the country. When USFW inspectors find "illegal" plants, they do one of two things:

1. Confiscate the plants and then send you a note or a note in an empty box.
2. If they feel like you're a bigger (commercial?) fish, they'll let the package continue to you, only to bust you moments after you accept the package from your mail delivery person.

The only info on Slippertalk readily available to USFW is that information that you put in your profile. If they actually want to track someone down, they'd have to start by getting your IP information. As a member of the Slippertalk moderating team, I'm quite positive that we have neither been contacted nor subpoenaed regarding such information. If someone from Slippertalk got busted, it's not because they were too "brazen" online. It was because they were taking too many risks with international orders and the numbers game caught up with them. Remember, it only takes one package with undocumented plants.

 

[NYEric]

I never said that STF online activity got anyone in trouble, but if you think that the government doesn't mine information online [using key words, etc] then you're sadly naive.

 

[kentuckiense]

I never said that STF online activity got anyone in trouble

Ok, that's fair. This is from your original post:

I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors.

I interpreted your statement as suggesting that this person was too open with their online orchid-related activities. Obviously, I should've noted that includes more than Slippertalk.

but if you think that the government doesn't mine information online [using key words, etc] then you're sadly naive.

I never suggested anything like that anywhere, Eric, so insinuations of my naivety are unfounded. Of course the government monitors the internet. However, I think their search terms of interest generally aren't of the "hangianum" and "helenae" variety. It's important to keep in mind that when the government makes arrests, they want them to result in convictions. Thus, even if they know exactly who you are, I'm betting they would still go through the IP subpoena process just to have all their ducks in a row for the hearing. As I've mentioned before, I have no knowledge of that IP information being requested of Slippertalk.

However, I don't want my posts to result in a false sense of security. Do USFW people browse the forum? I'd assume they do. And I think that's a good rule to keep in mind when posting here. Assume that a USFW agent is looking at every picture or collection list you post. I think we can all agree that level of discretion is a good idea.

 

[kentuckiense]

I think the main point I'm trying to make is that hobbiests are FAR more likely to get in trouble from ordering "illegal" plants internationally than for posting their photos on the internet, but practicing good discretion is always a good idea.

 

[paphjoint]

ditto

I think the main point I'm trying to make is that hobbiests are FAR more likely to get in trouble from ordering "illegal" plants internationally than for posting their photos on the internet, but practicing good discretion is always a good idea.