Alert: Orchid Polize

[KyushuCalanthe]

You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!

 

[kentuckiense]

You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

 

[etex]

What of plants you get from reputable US vendors? Are plants from crosses, like Ho Chi Minh and helenae crosses also considered illegal?

 

[tenman]

What of plants you get from reputable US vendors? Are plants from crosses, like Ho Chi Minh and helenae crosses also considered illegal?

They can come for you anytime they want for anything they want now, that is the legacy of the previous administration. As a noted grower knows, who had legally imported plants with all appropriate paperwork, bred with them and sold the offspring, and then, over ten years later, was surprised when they came and seized his plants. They had changed their minds and decided to say the original legal, approved importation was illegal. Surprise! The cites nazis strike again!

So when they change their minds again and decide gratrixianum is illegal, moquettianum is illegal, insigne is illegal, they'll come for the rest of us!!

 

[kentuckiense]

You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!

Come to think of it, I bet this accounts for a significant portion of "busts." As with any hobby, there are feuds, jealousy, and some vindictive personalities.

 

[Roth]

They can come for you anytime they want for anything they want now, that is the legacy of the previous administration. As a noted grower knows, who had legally imported plants with all appropriate paperwork, bred with them and sold the offspring, and then, over ten years later, was surprised when they came and seized his plants. They had changed their minds and decided to say the original legal, approved importation was illegal. Surprise! The cites nazis strike again!

So when they change their minds again and decide gratrixianum is illegal, moquettianum is illegal, insigne is illegal, they'll come for the rest of us!!

No, the stories are very different. If it is about the gigantifolium, the problem being that the EXPORTER has been fucked, and at that time, he explained that those plants exported with CITES to US were illegal, jungle plants, established in his nursery.

The importer of all of that, sands + gigantifolium, acknowledged that the import was illegal ( nearly no one know his name in the hobbyists), and his customers - the one we are thinking about-, got problems afterwards based on that.

The importation was approved to be legal because the plants were artificially propagated. When it appeared that those were - very well - laundered plants, the importation became illegal. Like if you import diamonds as zirconium. You get a permit to import zirconium, but if the customs realize 5 years later that you have priceless diamonds, you cannot show them the zirconium permit...

As for people who order from Asia, the plants are so cheap that sometimes hobbyists will order couple hundreds plants. The sources are watched by the wildlife of many countries - like Kaichen or Mulyanto - and parcels are regularly seized, it's to be expected...

 

[NYEric]

My original post was to notify members of this forum that the authorities have started to investigate and prosecute [in various ways] orchid hobbyists. Through a member's own actions, both here and elsewhere, governmental agents seized a shipment of plants. My recommendation was to be more discreet. If you order a plant from overseas on eBay, and it doesn't have the proper paperwork, guess what!? Violation! I'm sorry kentuckiense was possibly offended by my comment but this thing is getting serious.

 

[tocarmar]

I just read this whole post !! & could not beleive it!! But instead of saying "Welcome to New York", I will say "Welcome to the US"!! & as a side note for those that DO ORDER FROM OVERSEAS (E-BAY, or Other) Maybe they can post links to how to go about DOING IT LEGALLY, So This does NOT happen to any more of US.

 

[kentuckiense]

My original post was to notify members of this forum that the authorities have started to investigate and prosecute [in various ways] orchid hobbyists. Through a member's own actions, both here and elsewhere, governmental agents seized a shipment of plants. My recommendation was to be more discreet. If you order a plant from overseas on eBay, and it doesn't have the proper paperwork, guess what!? Violation! I'm sorry kentuckiense was possibly offended by my comment but this thing is getting serious.

Eric, I'm not really sure where you are getting the idea that I was offended by your original post. Your original post was somewhat vague. I attempted to discuss the fact that ordering undocumented plants internationally was the best way get caught and that posting a lab propagated yet "illegal" helenae on ST probably isn't much to worry about, but is ill-advised. Indeed, in your most recent post, you mentioned the possibility of getting caught via international eBay purchases. See! We agree on virtually everything. Don't risk it via international purchases of "illegal" plants. Perhaps the main thing we disagree on is the risk posed by discussing your plants on internet forums like this one. However, we both agree that using good discretion is never a bad idea. I think that's the take home message that we're both trying to convey.

 

[kentuckiense]

Does anyone have any info on the inspection rate of packages entering the US from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.? I've ordered several books from China that came in what appeared to be unopened packages, but it was probably pretty easy for customs to tell it was just a book.

 

[Candace]

DO ORDER FROM OVERSEAS (E-BAY, or Other) Maybe they can post links to how to go about DOING IT LEGALLY, So This does NOT happen to any more of US.

I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.

 

[kentuckiense]

I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.

Candace, if you don't mind me asking, did you import CITES app. I (Paphs, Phrags) or app. II (everything else) species?

 

[Lanmark]

I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.

I've wanted to purchase some Sarcochilus plants (just a few) from Australia that I haven't been able to find in USA. I often wish I knew of a vendor in Australia who knew the paperwork, would be willing to sell a few specific plants to me and at least guide me thru the required paperwork, then ship via an expedited method...if that is even legal or possible! I've not found anyone who wants to do it because of the cost of the CITES and Phytosanitary certs, but if I (the customer) am willing to pay in advance for all these expenses plus pay for uber fast shipping and generously compensate the seller for the time and effort to do all of this, why don't vendors want to do it? It is because I don't wish to purchase thousands of dollars worth of plants all at once? I've pretty much given up on it for now and have spent my money elsewhere, but I can see myself once again wanting to do this in the future...unless the plants in question finally become available in USA.

 

[Clark]

When Geico was allowed to cross borders into NJ to compete and provide auto insurance, cost dropped 50% for us.

 

[NYEric]

True, costs would go down on pplant material but also true bureaucracy perpetuates itself!

 

[Roth]

Does anyone have any info on the inspection rate of packages entering the US from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.? I've ordered several books from China that came in what appeared to be unopened packages, but it was probably pretty easy for customs to tell it was just a book.

From what I know, 'documents' or 'books' usually pass through without much check. That's the way the Chinese usually send the plants overseas. They can do that for years without any single problem, but if once there is a seized parcel, usually the ones afterwards get into trouble. The ones before too, because usually too the customs will look back who received 'documents' from the same sender. Tracking at UPS or this kind of companies usually is kept for a couple years.

 

[Candace]

Candace, if you don't mind me asking, did you import CITES app. I (Paphs, Phrags) or app. II (everything else) species?

I was warned NOT to try to import any paphs so I stuck to hybrids(mainly cattleya). And I still had issues. You never know what inspector you're going to get and how they personally 'read' the rules. I was "lucky" enough to get a new inspector who knew nothing about orchids so I had to have my broker argue with him about flasks. It was a bit nerve racking and it proved to me that commercial importers earn their money.

 

[Candace]

I've wanted to purchase some Sarcochilus plants (just a few) from Australia that I haven't been able to find in USA. I often wish I knew of a vendor in Australia who knew the paperwork, would be willing to sell a few specific plants to me and at least guide me thru the required paperwork, then ship via an expedited method...if that is even legal or possible! I've not found anyone who wants to do it because of the cost of the CITES and Phytosanitary certs, but if I (the customer) am willing to pay in advance for all these expenses plus pay for uber fast shipping and generously compensate the seller for the time and effort to do all of this, why don't vendors want to do it? It is because I don't wish to purchase thousands of dollars worth of plants all at once? I've pretty much given up on it for now and have spent my money elsewhere, but I can see myself once again wanting to do this in the future...unless the plants in question finally become available in USA.

Yes, you've got it...the cost of importing makes it only sensible to do it in bulk, not one or two plants. Plus, if like me you don't live a close distance to a port of entry hiring a broker is an added cost. It's like buying a plant for $6 and the USPS shipping is $7.00....you need to buy enough to make the expense feasible.

 

[Lanmark]

Yes, you've got it...the cost of importing makes it only sensible to do it in bulk, not one or two plants. Plus, if like me you don't live a close distance to a port of entry hiring a broker is an added cost. It's like buying a plant for $6 and the USPS shipping is $7.00....you need to buy enough to make the expense feasible.

But see, sensible or not, I don't mind paying all those extra expenses if I want the plant badly enough. It depends on how much I want the plant. If I want a plant and I simply can't get it anywhere else without importing it, shouldn't it be my choice if I want to spend $500 or $1000 or more to import a plant which might only cost the equivalent of $50 - $200 in its home country? Therein lies my dilemma. I have, in the past, been willing to pay someone very generously for their time and effort, pay all the associated fees, and pay for expedited shipping in order to get a plant I could get nowhere else (and still can't) -- but the seller wouldn't do it. I'd understand if they hadn't ever exported a plant before and had no idea how to go about doing it, but this was a grower who routinely exported plants all over the world. It baffles me! A plant might be worth only a certain amount of money on the market, but to me it might have far more value because I have very specific interests and tastes. The old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" could be modified to "Value is in the eye of the purchaser" in this case. Perhaps it's not sensible, but life is really boring if we only ever do sensible things! Life is short, and sometimes I just want to spoil myself a little bit before I'm dead and gone. Why shouldn't I be able to do it if I have the means to do it? I'd much rather throw my money wantonly at another orchidist than waste it on gambling or drugs. oke:

Edit: To be fair I should make note of the fact that two vendors of Japanese orchids have done this for me in the past. I have been very pleased with my purchases and they were very pleased to make some extra cash in the process. I legally aquired plants which were not available anywhere else, and I have no regrets for doing business in this manner. I hope someday I'll find access to the Aussie plants I wish to cultivate.

 

[Candace]

I think if you contacted a commercial importer in the U.S. with cash in hand it might tempt them more. I suspect they'd be hesitant to do it and then be stuck with a $1,000 plant they can't resell for a profit. So, $ up front would be the way to go. If the cost is worth it to you. Make it clear to them. The vendors who say no are probably just to busy to do it as it does take quite a bit of work. Most overseas nurseries require money transfers which means a trip to the bank. Plus, if a commercial grower here has never dealt with the other grower.... There's just a lot of variables as to why a grower here doesn't want the hassles. Hiring a broker and dealing with the shipping etc. is a pain. Especially for one or two plants. But, keep searching there will be someone who'll do it for you. Especially if the grower is considering doing a bulk order from Australia.