Which MSU formulation?

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paph_deb

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I’m looking at using MSU-type fertilizer but am not clear on whether to go with the RO/pure or well/hard water formulation. Choosing is difficult due to the differing descriptions on vendor sites. I will be using Memphis tap water, which is pretty soft but which does have calcium and magnesium ...

Memphis Light, Gas and Water’s 2014 Report (http://www.mlgw.com/about/waterqualityreport) provided the following:
Alkalinity 55 ppm
Hardness 47 ppm
Hardness 2.7 grains/gallon
pH 7.2

Per the Magnesium Website Online Library (http://www.mgwater.com/mgrank.shtml#ordered), Memphis water has:
Magnesium 4.41 ppm
Calcium 9.01 ppm

Per the Center for Magnesium Education and Research (http://www.magnesiumeducation.com/magnesium-in-drinking-water), we have:
Magnesium 4.45 ppm
Calcium 7.9 ppm

So ... which formulation sounds most appropriate to you guys? I can certainly water with no fertilizer one week a month to help flush out any accumulating salts. Sound good?
 
Sounds like nice water. I'm guessing that either one will work.

If you target 30ppm N with pure water formula, you'll be getting 18.2 ppm of Ca and 4.5ppm of Mg.

As a related note, I wonder if well-water formula is less likely to precipitate in the stock solution.
 
At such low concentration, precipitation is unlikely with either formula - or K-Lite - and there is no potential of overdoing the calcium or magnesium.

Your comment on flushing begs the question of whether your media dry between waterings? If so, a periodic flush will do very little to redissolve the residues.


Ray Barkalow (via Tapatalk)
 
That's useful info, Ray. I'm so new to this that I don't know how dry the media is getting, but most of my (very small) collection of plants are paphs, so I'll be working to keep them happily moist.

If there are dried residues, does it help to soak the pot for a short time and then flush? (I don't think I'll have that problem, just trying to get my head around the watering/fertilizing concepts.)

Again, thanks. This such a helpful forum ... and so is your website! :)
 
Deb.

I think the easiest way to water and feed is often and very dilutely, mimicking what the plants see in nature. That'll mean using a more "open" potting mix, but that's good for the plants, too.

I just finished responding to someone who had purchased the MSU WW formula, then, at a friend's advice, applied it at one ounce per gallon, which is roughly 1600 ppm N. Time for some flushin'!!! I'm guessing that the friend bought theirs from RepotMe.com, who sells a made-up liquid version, yet (illegally) doesn't change the formula on the label...
 
Yikes, Ray. That was some over-fertilizing!

I have heard the good advice of feeding weekly, weakly (or is it weakly, weekly?) and that's my plan. :)
 
Please stop twisting around the phrase.
I'm sure you guys know what is meant by weekly weakly.
Not too strong a concentration of fertilizer each or every other watering (depending on the watering frequency).

And people know this is just a general guide. There are no numerical values assigned in that phrase, are there?
and no one water constantly their orchids in pot. They will have no roots left in no time. :p
 
To my mind, the phrase weakly, weekly (or weekly, weakly) isn't meant to be taken literally. It's simply a memorable way to say that low, regular feeding is better than periodically blasting a plant with ferts and/or feeding erratically. It's pretty much the same advice as feeding a dilute mixture regularly in order to replicate nature's rhythms. :)

ETA: Yep. What Happypaphy7 said.
 
Please stop twisting around the phrase.
I'm sure you guys know what is meant by weekly weakly.
Not too strong a concentration of fertilizer each or every other watering (depending on the watering frequency).

And people know this is just a general guide. There are no numerical values assigned in that phrase, are there?
and no one water constantly their orchids in pot. They will have no roots left in no time. :p

That's precisely my point. "Not too strong" is equally meaningless to anyone but you. Not everyone defines it the same way. If folks want to give good advice about feeding, then the formula, concentration, and feeding frequency ALL need to be considered and specified.

Concerning your watering comment, I disagree with that, as well. About 20 years ago, I split 300 seedlings of a phalaenopsis hybrid and an oncidium hybrid into two, approximately equal groups, and got them all established and growing in S/H culture, where they have a constant water supply. Half were watered about once every 4-5 days, the other half were watered every day. At the end of 6 months of that treatment, none of them lost roots and died, and the ones I watered daily were larger than the "control" group.

"Overwatering" does not cause root loss. "Underaerating" due to the use of a suffocating medium is what does it, and you may compensate for that by reducing your watering.
 
"Overwatering" does not cause root loss. "Underaerating" due to the use of a suffocating medium is what does it, and you may compensate for that by reducing your watering.

100% correct.

Be aware that when you compensate by reducing your watering frequency you also reduce the nutrient availability during the "dry" periods between watering. And that reduces growth.

Best growth can be achieved by using a media that allows watering everyday and then taking time to water that often.
 
I guess I'll just repeat stuff I have already said.
By "weakly, weekly", and/or "not too strong", people understand what it is meant, so don't say it is meaningless to anyone but me.
See, the person who started this thread said so as well. I doubt we are the only two people, because the phrase is not my invention.

Perhaps it's just meaningless to you. :poke:
but I know it's not. Even you get it. What you meant to say is it is vague.
That's why I said it's a general guide line. Gosh! Please read and get the point, and please be nice.

Fertilizer bottles or bags come with instructions.
By this rough guide line of "weakly", no one in the right mind will overdose.
Hence, at least you are not likely to burn the plant.
Now, if you want to get into the details, I know different people use different dilution. Full strength, half strength, quarter strength, and I've heard even less, and these all seem like a personal choice. All these people grow great plants.
Also, I started a thread about my friend's orchids growing and flowering perfectly fine after not having been fed for about one year.
Of course, fertilization is necessary under cultivation.

Regarding overwatering, I guess you have a different definition of the expression, or else, I see overwatering and underaerating as the same thing. At least, in certain settings where soil or dirt is used for potting medium, they are the same but said differently because after watering, air pockets in the potting mix will be saturated with water initially. Then, as the water drains, is taken up by plants, and dries out, the air pockets will increase, or should I say restore?

With open mix like bark, I don't know how overwatering ( since there are still plenty of "air room") kills roots, but it seems to happen unless it is an act of pathogenic organisms that attack roots.

I believe you on your experiment on S/H, and many other people have successful results, but not every plant adapts well to S/H.
Also, your comparison of two watering groups, it only makes sense since plants are mostly made of water.
You see basically the same results in orchids in bark mix. The one that are well watered grow to their full potential, and the ones that are underwatered will not grow as large or even get crinkled due to lack of water while in active growth.

Now, how about this one, I know people who grows cattleyas among other things, in water. Not S/H, but in water. So, there is very very poor aeration, but no root death.
Your explanation is not all that there is not completely correct.
So please don't say "it's meaningless to anyone but you" kind of stuff here.





That's precisely my point. "Not too strong" is equally meaningless to anyone but you. Not everyone defines it the same way. If folks want to give good advice about feeding, then the formula, concentration, and feeding frequency ALL need to be considered and specified.

Concerning your watering comment, I disagree with that, as well. About 20 years ago, I split 300 seedlings of a phalaenopsis hybrid and an oncidium hybrid into two, approximately equal groups, and got them all established and growing in S/H culture, where they have a constant water supply. Half were watered about once every 4-5 days, the other half were watered every day. At the end of 6 months of that treatment, none of them lost roots and died, and the ones I watered daily were larger than the "control" group.

"Overwatering" does not cause root loss. "Underaerating" due to the use of a suffocating medium is what does it, and you may compensate for that by reducing your watering.
 
Be aware that when you compensate by reducing your watering frequency you also reduce the nutrient availability during the "dry" periods between watering. And that reduces growth.


I doubt this difference is of any significance unless you mean like a month of not watering.
Even orchids that have not been fed for a long time, but just plain water grow and bloom fine for a limited time, so by skipping fertilizing here and there cannot hurt, or at least the difference caused by such "laziness" if any, will not be noticeable to us.

Best growth can be achieved by using a media that allows watering everyday and then taking time to water that often.

Yes and no. In theory, yes, when water and nutrients are provide in enough quantity when the plants need them, sure they will grow to perfection.
But no, because for example of paphiopedilum that mostly grow on limestone with some debris collected at the root area, even during the actively growing phase, the rain is not there every day, although rain is frequent and it can be for days on end. They are designed to withstand some period of "drought" without harm.
Sure there will be morning dews and stuff that provide water little bit on a daily basis.

So strictly speaking, daily watering being the ideal is not the only way. You can skip a day or two, and still be fine.

We know that there is a member in Norway who use mainly small stone chips as potting mix and water almost daily. We've all seen the results.
So yeah.
But for many of us, especially indoor growers like me who cannot not just liberally hose down in an apartment can't afford to do this. and watering daily is also not practical nor possible. There are other things to do other than watering. Plus, when you have hundreds of plants. oh, no~
 
But for many of us, especially indoor growers like me who cannot not just liberally hose down in an apartment can't afford to do this. and watering daily is also not practical nor possible. There are other things to do other than watering. Plus, when you have hundreds of plants. oh, no~

Exactly. You dont have the time or ability to water every day. The spacing between watering is for your benefit not the plants.
 

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