rungsuryanum

[Hilmar]

CITES is relatively complicated, so I`ll try to give a short (maybe not scientic complete correct) summary of the history:
CITES is an international regulation law/process for anything which has to do with endangered species, equal if plant or animal. It was introduced in 1986.
So we have several time lines in CITES:
1. If you own an protected species and can correctly show you have got it before ! 1986 it is legal (ancient time rule)
2. If you own an protected species you got from 1986 until Nov. 2018 you need to have an valid CITES document from any exporting country for this specimen and proved /registered by the according authority of your country (customs, USDA, BfN etc)
3. If you own an protected species from later than November 2018 you need to have an valid CITES document from the country of origin !! of this species
so only the native origin country of any species is allowd to give an valid CITES document to endemic species of their own county now.
That closes finally the mainly used way in that many after 1986 discovered new species have been introduced in trade: a new species was found for example in Myanmar, was brought illegally to Thailand, Taiwan, etc, was there artificially propagated and then send with an CITES document of the reproducing country all over the world. This is definitely finished by the CITES addendum from 2018 !
And that is the reason we at this time cannot have any lately discovered paph species legal anywhere else than in their natural origin countries because I have never seen an CITES document from Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia etc...

dear Ray,
I am not an professional lawyer and my english is bad, but I have to do with CITES for my business since many years ( CITES nursery P-DE-1004) so please check my simple words explanation, and please if any nonsence is in it, just correct me ...

Hilmar

 

[dodidoki]

Dear Hilmar, many thanks for your clear explanation.

 

[Ray]

Thanks for correction. How can a new or any specie turn to be legal???

As CITES is supposed to control trade, a wild-collected plant or even a seed capsule that is propagated in a nursery can yield offspring that - if the government has shown that it is truly trying to manage such things - may be considered eligible for trade.

 

[Ray]

I think that's a great explanation, Hilmar.

 

[Hilmar]

for possible legalisation:
yes, there is a passus in CITES which can help to bring illegal species by artificial propagation into an legal status:
any government which has underwritten the CITES regulations is allowed to handle confiscated species to an governmental proved institution, equal if public or private, to produce artificial grown next generations, and then they can be legalized by that countrie`s government, for me at example it was Paph. vietnamense, we got legal flasks from Antec Laboratories many years ago in a small limited quantity but with legal CITES documents for propagation of then the next generations. That was the source for all now lega P. vietnamense in Europe for example....
yes, that flasks not everyone could get, it was limited to people and companies who have been working together with CITES and have been proved for legal propagations in App. I in the past

 

[dodidoki]

for possible legalisation:
yes, there is a passus in CITES which can help to bring illegal species by artificial propagation into an legal status:
any government which has underwritten the CITES regulations is allowed to handle confiscated species to an governmental proved institution, equal if public or private, to produce artificial grown next generations, and then they can be legalized by that countrie`s government, for me at example it was Paph. vietnamense, we got legal flasks from Antec Laboratories many years ago in a small limited quantity but with legal CITES documents for propagation of then the next generations. That was the source for all now lega P. vietnamense in Europe for example....
yes, that flasks not everyone could get, it was limited to people and companies who have been working together with CITES and have been proved for legal propagations in App. I in the past

Dear Hilmar, let us talk about eg. vietnamense. Is this specie illegal for hobby growers, like me?

 

[NYEric]

Cites paperwork from the true country of origin.

 

[Ray]

Dear Hilmar, let us talk about eg. vietnamense. Is this specie illegal for hobby growers, like me?

If I recall correctly, the US Fish and Wildlife folks, who have the responsibility to deal with CITES stuff, refused vietnamense here because the Vietnam authorities had never issued a CITES certificate for anything.

 

[Paph Paradise]

If I recall correctly, the US Fish and Wildlife folks, who have the responsibility to deal with CITES stuff, refused vietnamense here because the Vietnam authorities had never issued a CITES certificate for anything.

Paphiopedilum vietnamense plants were seized by US authorities when someone was caught smuggling the species. They were sent to a rescue center where they were pollinated and the seed pods were sent to Antec. This was the legal source of the species in the USA. Sort of a work-around for the law.

The problem with plants and CITES is that once a plant is here legally, you effectively 'launder' all the illegal specimens. If I was to go to the trouble and expense of getting CITES certified rungsuryanum, as soon as I sold a few they would appear everywhere. I know for a fact that there are nurseries in Hawaii growing this species and making hybrids in anticipation of that day. I do not have that species in my nursery as we are CITES certified for export and I don't need to risk having one plant end my certification. It takes a considerable amount of paperwork and time to get and maintain a CITES master file.

I have Paphiopedilum vietnamense on my master file so I can legally export the species, so USFWS does accept the species here. I don't know if it is legal in Europe. If someone imported it with a valid CITES from the USA, in theory it would be legal.

Dave

 

[southernbelle]

Curiously, how much was an illegal rungsurianum at Redlands this year??

Not sure, they were tiny she said but that was all.

 

[dodidoki]

Paphiopedilum vietnamense plants were seized by US authorities when someone was caught smuggling the species. They were sent to a rescue center where they were pollinated and the seed pods were sent to Antec. This was the legal source of the species in the USA. Sort of a work-around for the law.

The problem with plants and CITES is that once a plant is here legally, you effectively 'launder' all the illegal specimens. If I was to go to the trouble and expense of getting CITES certified rungsuryanum, as soon as I sold a few they would appear everywhere. I know for a fact that there are nurseries in Hawaii growing this species and making hybrids in anticipation of that day. I do not have that species in my nursery as we are CITES certified for export and I don't need to risk having one plant end my certification. It takes a considerable amount of paperwork and time to get and maintain a CITES master file.

I have Paphiopedilum vietnamense on my master file so I can legally export the species, so USFWS does accept the species here. I don't know if it is legal in Europe. If someone imported it with a valid CITES from the USA, in theory it would be legal.

Dave

Dear Dave, very interesting what you wrote.....anybody knows that most of plants collected from wilde come from collecting before or after deforestation? Anybody thought about that fact, what would be with these plants/or species without "illegal trading"? Just lets talk about vietnamense, again...there are only few hundreds plants living in the forest. Noone has in situ flowering pic, eg.....i have not seen yet, anyway....this specie is saved by illegal trading and arteficial breeding ...so the same as roth, sandi etc. before...

 

[Rockbend]

Paphiopedilum vietnamense plants were seized by US authorities when someone was caught smuggling the species. They were sent to a rescue center where they were pollinated and the seed pods were sent to Antec. This was the legal source of the species in the USA. Sort of a work-around for the law.

Hi Dave!

My experience with these 'rescue centers' is that 1) many plants die under their 'care' (and not just from immediate shipping stress), 2) they share plants freely with universities and research centers, and 3) many plants go out to friends and 'connected people'.

They are not bastions of conservation, or even care. IMO, of course

 

[Paph Paradise]

Dear Dave, very interesting what you wrote.....anybody knows that most of plants collected from wilde come from collecting before or after deforestation? Anybody thought about that fact, what would be with these plants/or species without "illegal trading"? Just lets talk about vietnamense, again...there are only few hundreds plants living in the forest. Noone has in situ flowering pic, eg.....i have not seen yet, anyway....this specie is saved by illegal trading and arteficial breeding ...so the same as roth, sandi etc. before...

Most of the collected plants that are sold are just ripped out of their habitat, not in anticipation of development. Depending on the species the survival rate can be extremely low. The year leading up to the WOC seemed to have record quantities of collected Paphiopedilum species offered in bulk. People were trying to make a quick buck knowing that orchid buyers would be concentrated in Taiwan.

Dave

 

[Paph Paradise]

Hi Dave!

My experience with these 'rescue centers' is that 1) many plants die under their 'care' (and not just from immediate shipping stress), 2) they share plants freely with universities and research centers, and 3) many plants go out to friends and 'connected people'.

They are not bastions of conservation, or even care. IMO, of course

I suppose it depends on the center. If the curator doesn't understand the requirements for a particular species it is probably doomed.

Dave

 

[BrucherT]

First bud opened.View attachment 47588

Are you pollinating?

 

[NYEric]

CITES papers stamped from country of origin. I have been warned too many times to mess with illegal plants.