possible X's, your opinion?

[goldenrose]

Considering some possible crosses, what do you think & why?
1.(helen. x Jolly Green Gem) or In-Charm Topaz(helen. x Pacific Shramrock) x Tyke (barb. x henry).
2.(helen. x Jolly Green Gem) or In-Charm Topaz(helen. x Pacific Shramrock) x Little Trouble (barb. x charley).
3.(helenae x Jolly Green Gem) or In-Charm Topaz(helen. x Pacific Shramrock) x Lucky Bells (bellatulum x Bella Lucia).

First row pics (L).(helen. x Jolly Green Gem), (R)In-Charm Topaz
2nd row pics (L) Tyke, (R) Little Trouble
3rd row Lucky Bells

 

[nikv]

I'd cross it with one of those alba barbigerums that I've seen on this forum. I would definitely go for creating green progeny.

 

[cliokchi]

Hi goldenrose,

what's the parentage of the pictured hybrid , Paph. helenae x ?
what do you have in flower at the moment
looks like a nice starting point for making an interesting hybrid.
nice picture by the way
kindest regards
cliokchi

 

[goldenrose]

I'd cross it with one of those alba barbigerums that I've seen on this forum. I would definitely go for creating green progeny.

I don't have one of those!:sob: Actually my first choice was to use charley on Tyke & Little Trouble but my new charley is not what I would want and could probably make what needs improvement worse!

...what's the parentage of the pictured hybrid , Paph. helenae x ?
what do you have in flower at the moment
looks like a nice starting point for making an interesting hybrid...
cliokchi

photobucket was slow in loading, all info should be in the post now.
All are in bloom. My thought is the helenae crosses would help improve the dorsals on Tyke & Little Trouble but what would happen colorwise?
As far as Lucky Bells goes, this one is a bit cuppy, would either helenae X open it up a bit? Have brachy x paph subgenus X's been made? hmm... how have they turned out?

 

[biothanasis]

Considering the pictures are in this order

1,2
3,4,5

I would cross 1 or 2 with 5, 3 with 5 and 4 with 5 cause I like flowers with spots and patterns and because I am curious about how flower shape will turn out

 

[Ross]

My thoughts are the Tyke and the Little Trouble would "muddy" the colors of either helenae cross. The helenae x Jolly Green Gem) has a really nice non-reflexing dorsal for a helenae cross.

 

[tim]

yeah - i was thinking mud, mud and hard to flower. Try the brachy cross - that sounds the most interesting if you have the time and space to grow out offspring. I might suggest crossing the two helenae hybrids...

 

[goldenrose]

I'm lovin' the feedback! Please keep it coming! TIA

Considering the pictures are in this order
1,2
3,4,5
I would cross..... 4 with 5 cause I like flowers with spots and patterns and because I am curious about how flower shape will turn out

The pics are in that order.
4 x 5, didn't think about that, let bella beef up Little Trouble.

My thoughts are the Tyke and the Little Trouble would "muddy" the colors of either helenae cross. The helenae x Jolly Green Gem) has a really nice non-reflexing dorsal for a helenae cross.

Thanks Ross, thanks what I was wondering.

yeah ..... hard to flower. Try the brachy cross - that sounds the most interesting if you have the time and space to grow out offspring. I might suggest crossing the two helenae hybrids...

Hard to flower? that comes as a big surprise, I love these helenae crosses, they're as little trouble as "Little Trouble"! They grow like weeds & are quite easy for me & my conditions.
The brachy cross could be interesting, I think at some point some other subgenus needs to be used/tried, could be interesting.
I did think bout Xing the helenae X's but I don't think I'd end up with much different than what I have? I do have a venustum x helenae X that could use beefing up, might save some pollen for that.

 

[tim]

i mean that sometimes these intra-sectional hybrids (like a helenae x crossed with a brachy) are more difficult to grow and flower compared to staying within section. By crossing the two helenae x you might get some interesting recombinations - smaller plants with rounder flowers if the plant size of the helenaes combine and the better flower shape of the complexes combine...

 

[SlipperKing]

That's interesting Tim. I may have to do that with mine.

 

[TyroneGenade]

I'm with Tim. The intra-helenae breeding would be the most productive for form and color. Frankly, the form of your Tyke and Little Trouble look quite poor and would be a step back IMO.

The brachy cross would be interesting... Bright yellow with dark spots.

 

[goldenrose]

i mean that sometimes these intra-sectional hybrids (like a helenae x crossed with a brachy) are more difficult to grow and flower compared to staying within section. By crossing the two helenae x you might get some interesting recombinations - smaller plants with rounder flowers if the plant size of the helenaes combine and the better flower shape of the complexes combine...

OK - understood, keeping that in mind, then comes the question of the pod parent, better not to use the brachy?

 

[TyroneGenade]

Do a reciprocal cross, that way you save yourself the time of deciding who gets to play mommy. The (helen. x Jolly Green Gem) has a nice dorsal and the In-Charm Topaz a more pleasing shape. It would be nice to get both traits on one plant. Anyone know if either of these traits are more maternal in inheritance than the other?

If you do have spare pollen the brachy cross would be very interesting... I would use the flower with the more open shape for that cross.

 

[goldenrose]

I don't think it's gonna make much difference in who's the pod parent for the helenae X's. That question was put more to the helenae X x brachy & it appears we're agreeing - go with the helenae X as pod parent.
I will have an update shortly, some pollen has become available :drool::drool:.

 

[goldenrose]

Update!

At this point I've ruled out doing any breeding with Tyke, this is a first time bloom so I should really grow it another year & see what next year's bloom looks like. I love the vigor & growth of Little Trouble, it got the short end of the deal (- where's the charley?) and needs color, the rest of it I can accept - it's the barbi. My heart & gut feeling says regarding both, hold off for a modern day charley or use a nice charlie hybrid instead.

The brachys .... at this point in time I don't want to use them as the pod parent, I've not had them long enough to feel I have the culture good enough to produce/hold & survive a pod, this year, that could be suicide if I did but I could certainly use the pollen.

So that leads to the helenae X's ..... barbigerum aureum has been suggested or a smaller white/green, something like Paph Tommie Hanes, if either was available, who would you cross to who? It's makin' me think, I have a third helenae X in bud, on this plant the helenae is not dominate as in my other 2 crosses, here it is -

.
Do I use helen x venustum at all?
helen x venustum to Jolly Green Gem or do I try the brachy cross here? Rule of breeding - breed best to best or 2nd best which says I should use Jolly Green x Topaz.