Phrag ((kovachii x dalessandroi) x schlimii)

[SlipperKing]

Nice pouch. Lets see another pic after it matures a bit more.

 

[li'l frog]

Kovachii x dal = Peruflora's Cirila Alca

Helps eliminate all the x's

 

[goldenrose]

..... At least there are a lot of them around so it means the price is going to go down. Good for the general public consumer and small hobbyist.

I'm not holding my breath! In how many years? It took some time for bessies to come down, as long as consumers are willing to pay the price, it will stay up there.

Nice! I like this one!
There are a lot of them around?? Never heard of this cross before. I know schlimii x kovachii and dalessandroi x kovachii, but no back crosses. Who made it?

I got a flask of kov x schlimi from Chuck A. last summer. I'm hoping this cross would downsize the plant size, which means the flower size will come down too, but that's OK by me. I like the outcome of this one, I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Schlimii on steroids! Cool!!!

:clap::clap:

 

[tomkalina]

I agree with Brian; the first generation of Pk hybrids has been generally unimpressive, except for size. Breeding back to besseae or fischeri could/should produce an improvement in form and color, but a corresponding reduction in size.

 

[NYEric]

Hmmm, I kind of like the fist sized blooms!

 

[gonewild]

I agree with Brian; the first generation of Pk hybrids has been generally unimpressive, except for size. Breeding back to besseae or fischeri could/should produce an improvement in form and color, but a corresponding reduction in size.

Remember that all (?) of the kovachii hybrids were made in Peru. The breeders there don't have the high quality breeding stock of Phrags available to use to make the crosses. They pretty much used whatever Phrag was in flower when the kovachii blooms opened. So the resulting quality of the offspring would be lower than if bred with select quality parents.

 

[goldenrose]

Good point Lance.

 

[John M]

It was my understanding that Glen Decker took pollen with him to Peru to put on the kovachii's. I presume that Glen would take pollen only from select plants. Wasn't that the whole reason why he got involved? This is copied from the home page of Piping Rock Orchids:

"Phragmipedium kovachii

I’m pleased to announce that we are the first American nursery to be actively propagating and hybridizing this great new species from Peru. This has been a project that we’ve been working on since May of 2003, when Alfredo Manrique, owner of Centro de Jardineria Manrique, Lima, Peru, was granted the first permit to collect the five plants that we are presently working with."

 

[SlipperFan]

I think things will change with line-bred kovachii.

 

[Chuck]

This is a fine looking bloom even with the cupped dorsal sepal.

As to the quality of kovachii hybrids, I can only speak to my own experience. It's very difficult to judge flower quality from photos. The "kovachii pink" is difficult to capture well. I have only bloomed five kovachii hybrids. One was a "dog" but a dog that a lot of people liked. The other four can have a seat in my greenhouse anytime ... big, bold, and varying degrees of beautiful. Two were good enough, I feel, to use as parents. I don't think blanket statements about poor quality in kovachii hybrids is at all valid. The petals usually aren't flat, we know. The dorsal sepal is often cupped or pinched. So what. Has anyone looked at a caudatum hybrid lately. These kovachii hybrids have a distinct group of characteristics. There are some dogs but I, for one, find many of them quite attractive.

 

[gonewild]

It was my understanding that Glen Decker took pollen with him to Peru to put on the kovachii's. I presume that Glen would take pollen only from select plants. Wasn't that the whole reason why he got involved? This is copied from the home page of Piping Rock Orchids:

"Phragmipedium kovachii

I’m pleased to announce that we are the first American nursery to be actively propagating and hybridizing this great new species from Peru. This has been a project that we’ve been working on since May of 2003, when Alfredo Manrique, owner of Centro de Jardineria Manrique, Lima, Peru, was granted the first permit to collect the five plants that we are presently working with."

Transporting pollen into Peru would require special import permits which are probably impossible to get from INRENA and even more of a problem from SENASA.

Alfredo Manrique also told me they could only use the plants they had in Peru already. The available flowers I saw where good quality but not high quality.

 

[Erythrone]

From:

Decker, G. Phragmipedium kovahii hybrids. Orchid Digest, vol. 73-4. December 2009

"Since this was a plant strictly under the control and supervision of the Peruvian government, the first round of hybrids were done in Peru. At the time, two Peruvian orchid nurseries were given the permits to collect, grow, hybridize and distribute kovachii and its hybrids. The first was Alfredo Manrique of Centro de Jardineria Manrique and the other Manolo Arias of Peruflora. I had the distinct pleasure of being able to work with Manrique on many of these first hybrids. The biggest problem we faced was simply that we were limited to what was available in Peru to breed with, which was a handful of species and a few besseae hybrids."

 

[Kevin]

This is a fine looking bloom even with the cupped dorsal sepal.

As to the quality of kovachii hybrids, I can only speak to my own experience. It's very difficult to judge flower quality from photos. The "kovachii pink" is difficult to capture well. I have only bloomed five kovachii hybrids. One was a "dog" but a dog that a lot of people liked. The other four can have a seat in my greenhouse anytime ... big, bold, and varying degrees of beautiful. Two were good enough, I feel, to use as parents. I don't think blanket statements about poor quality in kovachii hybrids is at all valid. The petals usually aren't flat, we know. The dorsal sepal is often cupped or pinched. So what. Has anyone looked at a caudatum hybrid lately. These kovachii hybrids have a distinct group of characteristics. There are some dogs but I, for one, find many of them quite attractive.

I totally agree, Chuck. I have seen some mightly fine examples of kovachii crosses posted in pictures on this forum. Plus, a number of kovachii crosses have already gotten AOS awards, if that means anything (I know, to some it doesn't).

 

[Brian Monk]

mehhhh..............................


I didn;t day that these flowers were poor. But that they were not as ggod as the parent species - kovachii.

As an admitted non-avid grower of Phrags ( i have two hybrids and one species), I would much rather grow a kovachii than ANY of the kovachii hybrids I have seen so far. My hope for this line is that when combned with d'allesandoi or besseae, they will increase in color whilst retaining their good form. But they still won't approach the size of kovachii

 

[NYEric]

Chuck, I too adopt stray "dogs"!!

 

[Justin]

fascinating discussion...so how long do you all think it will be until the kovachii prices go down? Three years?

 

[lienluu]

Like many kovachii hybrids, this one looks dreadful after a few days open.

 

[tomkalina]

I reiterate - From a judging standpoint, the first generation Pk hybrids have been a disappointment. Very few are flat for any period of time (the petals reflex and curl); the colors are not generally even (they fade over time) and all hybrids made with between Pk and non-micropetallum species have been uniformly disappointing.... When we see Phrag hybrids made within section Micropetallum at the judging table, we expect to see a form that tends toward roundness and fullness which is not present in Pk hybrids like Perufloras Cirila Alca or any of the hybrids I've seen made with Pk and schlimii....... All this is not to say the first generation Pk hybrids are not horticulturally interesting, they're just not what I as a judge, would consider competitive in any aspect except size - which amounts to only 10 points on a 100 point scale.

Thanks

 

[goldenrose]

..... I have only bloomed five kovachii hybrids. One was a "dog" but a dog that a lot of people liked. The other four can have a seat in my greenhouse anytime ....

Only 5? - CONGRATS - I'd be thrilled with 1! I'm assuming these were 1st time blooms? According to Glenn don't judge a plant by it's 1st bloom, it's gonna take several more bloomings before one knows the true potential.
There are several routes a plant could take -
A) be good the 1st time & get better with each blooming.
B) the first could be pretty good & if the second is poor ..... then what? Ahh heck, gotta go a 3rd blooming!
C) bloom a plant several times & still find it's a dog!
... so have fun & gain experience growing pk X's!

 

[cnycharles]

hello tom,
I understand from a judging standpoint that as you say many of the hybrids have been disappointing because of 'this and that'. We all know that aos judging always tends towards uniformly round flowers, no matter the genera and species, and breeding is always trying to make flowers that are round and flat. Though I may agree with you on many of the points you state, isn't it sort of a failure of the system to not judge a hybrid by how it should look (being awarded for a good example of a blend of two species/hybrids) and not, another flower that is supposed to be round and flat? Your explanation is clear and I respect your views, I'm more pointing out that maybe in this and many other cases more emphasis should be made by the judging system to judge for what looks good given the genes of the plants who are parents, and not forcing the expression to be round and flat, doing excessive line breeding to try and ferret out what we as humans think the flowers should look like, instead of what a flower looks like after hundreds or thousands of years of survival and adaptation? in this case of kovachii being crossed to many things, the hybrids are doing what kovachii's genes are contributing, and waviness and this and that is what kovachii does, what makes kovachii what it is. there should be no expectation that a round and flat micropetalum crossed with a kovachii would ever off the bat make something at all round and flat...
my points aren't against personal opinion and observation or judging skills which I highly respect for most of the aos judges who I've met (or met through the forum here), just that the aos judging system has let down the orchids (in a small way that pertains to my comments)
I'm not a huge fan of kovachii (it's nice, but a bit gaudy in my opinion and way too big) so I'm not just sticking up for kovachii hybrids because of loving anything kovachii... I guess I may have a bit of the 'species' chip on my shoulder because I've seen species that will never get good awards from the aos because they have the 'species look' and because of genetically-directed unruliness of the flowers ( ) judges have said that they won't get awards. and the plants are doing what they should be doing, and just because the genes don't say to the flower 'be round and flat', they aren't 'good' or exceptional. I know that would probably make the judging process more subjective and difficult, but so be it