Phrag. exstaminodium ('Gandalf' CHM/AOS x self)

[Drorchid]

A species you don't see too often. This seedling originated from Orchidbabies.

Robert

 

[Shiva]

Very nice, and the plant doesn't look as big as I thought.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Eh! Of course the logical question is, where do those petals end?!

 

[SlipperFan]

It looks like popowii ex-stam.

 

[NYEric]

pm'ing

 

[Rick]

Mine's in spike now too Robert. When did yours start? I think it's going a lot slower than typical long petaled phrags.

 

[Rick]

It looks like popowii ex-stam.

I guess that's part of the debate.

 

[Heather]

Nice!!

 

[SlipperKing]

Great pouch coloring. I got one from Earl also but not anywhere close to blooming.

 

[NYEric]

Err, is this extaminodum?

 

[paphjoint]

Very nice !

 

[Rick]

Err, is this extaminodum?

It breeds true from the parent.

There was a thread a ways back that discussed the sources and characteristics of "true" exstaminodium. Earl did chime in with source verification.

 

[NYEric]

I need to find that thread because there is currently some confusion w/ type descriptions and plants sold as extaminodum! Thanx.

 

[Drorchid]

I need to find that thread because there is currently some confusion w/ type descriptions and plants sold as extaminodum! Thanx.

Do you mean this thread?:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12240

Robert

 

[NYEric]

Yes that one, thanx. too bad the photos are gone from the taxonomy thread.

 

[Phrag-Plus]

Yes that one, thanx. too bad the photos are gone from the taxonomy thread.

Hi Eric, I did put back my photos on the taxonomy thread...

For me Gandalf and Wotan are not the true specie, is it an hybrid or an exstamino popowii???

For me one thing is clear they doesn’t fit the reference description of the specie from Castano, Hagsater and Aguirre.

I did even saw photos of Wotan with a very nice and well formed staminod... Showing than it is definitively not the true specie.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10081&highlight=extaminodium

 

[NYEric]

OK, then which or where is the "true" extaminodum!?

 

[Rick]

I think we're getting into some pretty fine hair splitting again. Separating Gandalf from Roberts other exstam (because of the difference in petal stance), would be like calling Fabrice's new roth a hybrid or new species based on the same degree of difference from the type description of the dorsal sepal. For that matter, how many "species" of lowii and phillipinense would there be if they were differentiated by the same degree of petal stance we are scrutinizing these exstaminodium by.

lindenii is argueably just a mutant of the old wallisii, and every now and then I've heard one pops up with a pouch (or is it the occaisonal wallisii that comes out pouchless?). But I bet if you put ten in the same picture you'd see about as much variation in petal stance. So are the ones that end up with pouches new species, and the ones that are not a photocopy of the original type description hybrids?

Technically if you don't have an unbroken chain of documentation of the source of origin of the plant in question then you are SOL as being 99.99% sure in any case of a species plant.

However Gandalf is a non-staminode popowii like flower that breeds true, and is already entered into AOS awards.Taxonomy was "verified" by Koopowitz. So for practicality sake its considered an exstaminodium by the AOS. Which for many is not worth the paper its printed on either.

 

[musiclovertony]

Very lovely!

 

[Phrag-Plus]

I think we're getting into some pretty fine hair splitting again. Separating Gandalf from Roberts other exstam (because of the difference in petal stance), would be like calling Fabrice's new roth a hybrid or new species based on the same degree of difference from the type description of the dorsal sepal. For that matter, how many "species" of lowii and phillipinense would there be if they were differentiated by the same degree of petal stance we are scrutinizing these exstaminodium by.

lindenii is argueably just a mutant of the old wallisii, and every now and then I've heard one pops up with a pouch (or is it the occaisonal wallisii that comes out pouchless?). But I bet if you put ten in the same picture you'd see about as much variation in petal stance. So are the ones that end up with pouches new species, and the ones that are not a photocopy of the original type description hybrids?

Technically if you don't have an unbroken chain of documentation of the source of origin of the plant in question then you are SOL as being 99.99% sure in any case of a species plant.

However Gandalf is a non-staminode popowii like flower that breeds true, and is already entered into AOS awards.Taxonomy was "verified" by Koopowitz. So for practicality sake its considered an exstaminodium by the AOS. Which for many is not worth the paper its printed on either.

Hi Rick,
I do understand and agreeing with you in some points, but for me there is much more than just a petal spread and missing staminode involve here.

Yes it breed true, and now with those self (or F1 x self) we are going to have a wide range of variation between the two species involved there… For me the risk of loosing the genetic pool of this gorgeous specie is real and make me feel very sad.

Yes, papers were printed and the AOS did recognise and awarded it… And yes unfortunately we will have to live with it now, but people are not allowed to know it, that way they can make their own research and opinion about this.

Jean-Pierre