Phrag. besseae var. flavum

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smartie2000

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that solid yellow is excellent! I didn't know it was deformed...
No one is selling these in Canada yet that I know of, but the price will probably be too high for me anyways
 

Heather

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If anyone says "mutation" I may have to kill them. ;)
I think it is a very interesting example of evolution. Granted, it doesn't get the plant anything more but it is, no doubt, very interesting!
 
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Barbara

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So very beautiful, love this colour yellow. I'll check into this here in Canada to, maybe Russel will have some? Hopefully...
 
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Grandma M

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Heather
Here is my besseae (Hidden Agenda X Winter Sun). It was refered to as a split yellow. It was a first bloom on a tiny plant. Hopefullly next time the bloom will have better shape.
 

NYEric

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Grandma M said:
Heather
Here is my besseae (Hidden Agenda X Winter Sun). It was refered to as a split yellow.
I hope you mean flavum besseae.:poke:
I have a couple of those and I'm glad it doesn't look split at all. Nice job also.
 

NYEric

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Heather said:
If anyone says "mutation" I may have to kill them. ;)
I think it is a very interesting example of evolution. Granted, it doesn't get the plant anything more but it is, no doubt, very interesting!
Well it is a little weird that it's happening and only to one petal. I think you should maybe cut down on the radioactive isotopes. :poke:
 
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Grandma M

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When I bought it I was told it was a 'split yellow'. I have 5 plants of that cross and I will post pics when the others bloom.

besseae (‘Hidden Agenda’ x ‘Winter Sun’) A split yellow by a deep yellow besseae. Looking for much improved yellows and split yellows.
 

Kyle

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The parents were split yelllow. Or at least I imaging 'hidden agenda' is. The yellow genes would be the hidden agenda they are refering to. Now, 'Winter Sun' doesn't sound like a name for the red flower. So your plant is probably the result of a yellow x split yellow. The results would produce a higher percentage of yellow offspring then mating two split yellows.

Is it a good grower for you? Is it the only yellow you have?

Kyle

Edit: You replied while I was typing. A yellow flower can't be split yellow. It's yellow. I hope your lucky and get five yellow plants!
 
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Grandma M

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Kyle

It is not a good grower. It is very fussy. I have some in high light and some in med light. I will see which do best. The one that bloomed was grown under T5 bulbs

I don't understand the 'split yellow' term. I only know what I was told when I bought it about 15 months ago. It was a very small seeding at that time.

It may be yellow or split yellow, I don't understand what that is. I only know they seem to be difficult like the yellow besseae. I had a plain yellow one 'besseae flavum'. I got it to bloom once and then it died.
 
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lienluu

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I did a websearch and found another plant of Phrag.besseae(sib) ('Hidden Agenda' × 'Winter Sun') Z5323. It's Z number indicates it is from OZ. You can see the photo here:

http://mikiorchid.myweb.hinet.net/my.html

The close up looks like it shows a flower that's not completely open yet. The NS is pretty small, at 6.8cm.

There are some nice plants on that site too!
 
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lienluu

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Grandma M said:
I don't understand the 'split yellow' term. I only know what I was told when I bought it about 15 months ago. It was a very small seeding at that time.
"Split yellow" would mean that it contained one yellow gene and one red (normal) gene. Meaning that it would be a red flower that contained one gene for yellow flower.

Assuming yellow is a recessive trait, if you breed a "split yellow" with a yellow you would get:

50% yellow
50% split yellow

Therefore, if the parents of yours are a split yellow and a yellow, then half of the plants produced from that cross will come out yellow. the other half would be split yellow.

I'm not totally convinced the flavum gene in besseae is recessive, and think it is probably codominant. but in either case, you would still get 50% pure yellows from a cross of split yellow with yellow.

Hope this makes sense.

Lien
 

Kyle

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Google 'punnett square' and you should get some pages that will expand on what Lien said.

I agree that the yellow color is probably more complicated then simple mendilian genetics, but generally speaking thats how it works.
 

littlefrog

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I've just never heard the term 'split' to refer to a known heterozygote before... That is what is confusing to me. The genetics work for me though. I'm not a formally trained plant breeder, so maybe I don't get all the jargon.

Split petal was a term used once to describe some color forms of (usually hybrids) phrag flowers that were differently colored on the upper half of the petal than the lower half. Or at least it was used in the company I kept, who were not plant breeders, and that term may never have left Michigan for all I know... Hanne Popow had a nice percentage of 'split petal' forms, for example.

I've bloomed several of the 'Hidden Agenda' x 'Winter Sun' cross and they have all been yellow. I wouldn't expect that if 'Hidden Agenda' was heterozygous at the 'red locus' and red is dominant, assuming it is a single gene locus that is responsible for red color. This happens sometimes. I know that a back cross of P. wardii [(nom x alba) x alba] that Sam Tsui made came out all nominal (no albas), his too, not just my flat. So, even if the crosses were made properly (I trust Sam) it isn't always as simple as one locus one trait.
 

Kyle

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I used to breed birds. The term split was used a lot when dealing with recessive and sex-linked traits. Things like albinos and lutinos. Lien breeds birds too, so I bet that why he thinks in those terms as well.

Basically a plants that is split to something has a hidden gene that isn't being expressed. Split to yellow means a red flower with one yellow gene. Weither it is a simple as hetrozygous vs homozygous as the factor for it to be expressed or something far more complicated, I don't know.

Dean Stock used to post here, I'm sure he would know.

Kyle
 
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lienluu

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Kyle said:
I used to breed birds. The term split was used a lot when dealing with recessive and sex-linked traits. Things like albinos and lutinos. Lien breeds birds too, so I bet that why he thinks in those terms as well.

Basically a plants that is split to something has a hidden gene that isn't being expressed. Split to yellow means a red flower with one yellow gene. Weither it is a simple as hetrozygous vs homozygous as the factor for it to be expressed or something far more complicated, I don't know.

Dean Stock used to post here, I'm sure he would know.

Kyle

I don't think Dean is a member of ST. he does post, or used to post on SOF. You should invite him over here!

You're right, split is a common term in bird breeding so i'm quite comfortable with it. I used to raise snakes also and in the reptile word, they refer to splits are "hets", either way you say it, all the same.

I don't think flavum in besseae is multigene, but i do think it is codominant. But to be honest with you, I don't breed so i am only basing this on the limited plants that i have bloomed using it as a single parent.
 
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paphiness

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vigor, besseae, and genetics

I have a clone besseae flavum which Terry Root called the most vigorous flavum he'd ever seen. When I acquired it, it had six flower spikes. It grows as vigorously as any red besseae. So it is possible to obtain a vigorous flavum through selective breeding.

For those interested (or intimidated!) by genetics terminology, I've posted a series of basic orchid genetics articles written for the layperson on my website: www.paphinessorchids.com. The pictures in the articles don't feature besseae, but at least it is Paph-specific...

I've actually discussed with Terry Root whether the flavum allele is recessive, and he says it is. A cross to the peach-colored besseae gives all peach. A cross to the normal (i.e., homozygote) red gives all red. A cross to a heterozygote (perhaps called "split" in certain breeding circles) results in 50% red, 50% yellow.

(Orchids, and humans, are diploid organisms which means that they carry two copies of each gene, and in this case, we would mean a pigmentation gene. A heterozygote in this context means that for this pigmentation gene, it carries one red allele, and one yellow allele. A homozygote carry two copies of the same allele for its two copies.)
 
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