Phrag. besseae from Peru

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Drorchid, Jan 21, 2009.

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  1. Jan 21, 2009 #1
    We have had this besseae in our collection for a while. It is a first generation (wild) besseae and was collected in Peru. It is very different than any other wild besseae's that I have seen. The pouch looks very different with very distinct windows, and it is differently shaped compared to a regular besseae. Also in most besseae's that I have seen the ridge along the opening of the pouch is usually yellow. This plant has a lot of red along the ridge. The Staminodal shield is very red (it does come to a point like most besseae's do). The growth habit is different, just like dalesandroi, it does not form any stolons, and the new growths appear right next to the old growth. What makes this plant most distinct is that it selfpollinates! Has anyone else seen plants that are similar to this one, and if so, is it known as a different variety of besseae?

    Flower:
    [​IMG]

    Side:
    [​IMG]

    Close up:
    [​IMG]

    Compared to a "regular" besseae:
    [​IMG]

    Plant:
    [​IMG]

    Close up of new growths:
    [​IMG]

    Robert
     
  2. Jan 21, 2009 #2

    kentuckiense

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    Is this the "Peru 1988" clone? If so, I have a division, and I love it!
     
  3. Jan 22, 2009 #3

    ohio-guy

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    Have you done a chromosome count on it?
     
  4. Jan 22, 2009 #4

    SlipperFan

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    I love the two-tone effect and the pouch. Is it possible to be a variety of dalessandroi instead of besseae?
     
  5. Jan 22, 2009 #5

    Kyle

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    I took these pictures at a botanical garden in Germany. Hanover I think. These plants share some simularities with yours.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The plants were both self pollenating. Something I had never seen in besseae. I don't remember much about the growth of the plants, but I do remember thinking to myself that these may be peruvian besseaes. They don't look much like the ones I was used to seeing in Ecuador.

    Kyle
     
  6. Jan 22, 2009 #6

    SlipperKing

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    Wow, this is an interesting topic.
     
  7. Jan 22, 2009 #7

    NYEric

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    I've seen it one w/ a bloom like that before but I can't remember where. I can't seem to get the species page up on phragweb so I couldn't check there. I'll keep looking.
     
  8. Jan 22, 2009 #8
    Do you have pictures of yours?, and does yours selfpollinate as well with a similar growth habit? If so it may be. I think the 1988 just refers to the year your plant was collected.

    No, not yet.

    I agree, the 2-tone effect makes it look a lot different compared to a regular besseae as well. I don't think it is a variety of dalessandroi, as it was collected in Peru, and it does not branch like dalessandroi does. Actually I still think dalessandroi is a variety of besseae, but we have talked about that in other posts. This plant here just shows that there is a lot of variation within the "besseae" complex, so to me the "dalessandroi" concept is just part of that variation. I would go so far to call dalessandroi a variety of besseae as it is geographically isolated, and distinct from besseae, but I would not call it a different species; If you would, this one should be considered a different species as well as it is just as distinct from a regular besseae as dalessandroi is different from a regular besseae, which I do not believe it is.

    Robert
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2009
  9. Jan 22, 2009 #9
    Thanks Kyle. Yes that plant does share a lot of the same characteristics as our plant (except it has a better shaped flower), so It probably does come form the same gene pool.

    Robert
     
  10. Jan 22, 2009 #10
    Have you let any of the selfed capsules develop? Shuffle the genes a little bit and see if yours doesn't have some progeny that are nicer shaped like the ones Kyle posted? :)
     
  11. Jan 22, 2009 #11
    Gorgeous blooms!!!!!!
     
  12. Jan 23, 2009 #12

    cnycharles

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    very interesting thread!

    the spiranthes cernua complex is known to self-pollinate in some or most areas. it might be that if you get an isolated population of a wide mix of genes you might end up with self-pollinating plants. I realize this isn't exactly a good theory, just a thought! from reading here it seems like dallessandroi and besseae have a wide mix in areas that they overlap, and it could be that many of the plants we see are part of a possibly dividing species complex further along than spiranthes cernua is, and an isolated pocket (or isolated maybe at one point in time a while back) has created these interesting plants!

    so, if you have a self-pollinating besseae that doesn't grow up out of it's pot, it's probably a relation to these plants pictured here?
     
  13. Jan 23, 2009 #13

    SlipperFan

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    I have a question that might be appropriate in this thread. Today I saw a reference to besseae v. paute. What is that???
     
  14. Jan 23, 2009 #14

    kentuckiense

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  15. Jan 23, 2009 #15

    kentuckiense

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    My division hasn't bloomed yet. It is non stolonous and I got it from John who in turn got it from you all.
     
  16. Jan 23, 2009 #16

    SlipperFan

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  17. Jan 23, 2009 #17

    kentuckiense

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    I imagine someone just tagged on the "v. paute" in order to show where it came from. It's not proper taxonomy or anything.
     
  18. Jan 24, 2009 #18

    SlipperFan

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    OK. Thanks.
     

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