Phrag Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur'

[John M]

More wrenches!

Gilda, now that I see your photo of the two plants together (thank you!), I take back that I think your Albopurpureum is properly labelled.

You see, Albopurpureum is Dominianum x schlimii. Phrag schlimii it a small growing species and Dominiamum is caudatum x caricinum. Phrag caudatum is not so big and "leafy" as your Albopurpureum.....and caricinum is a small, almost grass-like looking species. Phrag Albopurpureum isn't a large plant. It simply doesn't have the genetics for it. I'll bet that 'Sir Arthur' is an old, old awarded plant that was mislabelled either by accident or as often happened, on purpose because it looked like an Albopurpureum on steroids, even though, it wasn't Albopurpureum. Think about that famous awarded plant schlimii 'Wilcox'. It's a Cardinale (Sedenii x schlimii); but, someone pulled a fast one and called it schlimii. It looks like a giant schlimii. Unfortunately, the judges were asleep at the wheel, or they were in on the name change.....

Look at the foliage of your plants. It's lo-ooong.....like longifolium! Schroderae is Sedenii x caudatum. Phrag. caudatum is large; but, has fairly upright to arching leaves. Sedenii has long, arching, soft, strap leaves as a result of having longifolium as a parent.

So, lets say that the one on the right is actually a Schroderae. Schroderae should be much larger than Albopurpureum with longer foliage; but, the opposite is the case with your plants. The one on the left, just by looking at it's foliage is just too big and has leaves that are too long for it to be a true Albopurpureum. It's more likely a Schroderae as well....a nice, robust one; or, it was made with Dominiamum x (schlimii) 'Wilcox', which would introduce longifolium into it's gene make-up. Or, the Dominianum parent might have been mislabelled and was actually a Grande (caudatum x longifolium). Again, more longifolium. Whatever the case is, 'Sir Arthur' seems to me to have some big, honkin' longifolium in it's family tree somewhere, because Albopurpureum isn't supposed to have anything but fairly stiff and compact growing (caudatum), genes and some miniature, almost grass-like (caricinum and schlimii), genes in it's make-up. In fact, Albopurpureum's genepool is 75% from miniature, almost grass-like growing plants. Such a monster as 'Sir Arthur' is impossible to get from that breeding.

 

[Grandma M]

I'll confuse the issue even more.

The first blooming and the third blooming of plant # 1. It is just about to bloom for the 4th time with 2 stems.

This is what is written on the label. Albopurpurem 'Sir Arthur' AM/AOS - Dominianum X schlimii- where Domenianum = purchinem X caudatum

It was sold to me as a division.

Marilyn

 

[SlipperKing]

So John,
Based on your discription of Albopurpurem could my second plant be a true Albopurepurem? (See foliage pictures). It has the grasslike leaves in an upright position plus the flower has the appearence of a Schroderae but smaller.

OK Ladies,
Let me throw a wench-in-the-works just to give you all something to think about and discuss.

Here is a comparison of 2 of my plants both Albopurureum

Albopurpurem???:

Here are the two together:

And a close up of the leaves to compare sizes:

Both are Albopurpreums, neither one has a clonal name. So, are they or are they not the same cross???

 

[Wendy]

My plant (that I bought labeled Albopurpureum)...but I think is actually Calurum...has the same flower, stem habit and leaves as the plant on the left of your picture.

 

[NYEric]

Yes, left=Calurum.

 

[Gilda]

This is all very confusing ! So, what is this one ?
http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg
All my phrag growths/leaves are larger than they were when I got them, perhaps due to growing in lower light ??
The staminode is much darker in the 'Sir Arthurs', mine , Marilyn's and in this picture link . In the %25 gene pool, could a monster not be lurking ? :wink:

 

[NYEric]

This is all very confusing ! So, what is this one ?
http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg

In my humble opinion, this plant, Slipperking's top plant, Grandma M's plant all Albopurpureum. The ones w/ shorter diagonal lateral petals all Calurum. I first became aware of this hybrid because a vendor had fotos of a white one, when I went and actually saw the plant it was too pink/purple for my liking so I didn't take a division.

 

[SlipperKing]

Thanks Eric for your HO! that's what I was think'in too!

 

[Gilda]

I agree that Rick's small grasslike foliage looks like John M's description of Albo..Grandma's foliage doesn't look small and grasslike enough IMHO..too wide and floppy according to John's description.

 

[John M]

Yes Rick. Your second plant seems to be true Albopurpureum. Yay!!! The flower is similar to Schroderae in overall shape, with long-ish petals; but, it's smaller than Schroderae, as it should be. The foliage is bang on what it should be and the pouch has no "horns".

The lack of "horns" or remnants of them on either side of the pouch opening is important here. Phrag. caudatum, caricinum and schlimii (the species in the background of Albopurpureum), have no horns.

The plants labelled Albopurpureum (such as 'Sir Arthur'), that have horns on either side of the pouch must have something else in their genetic make-up. In this case, because of the long leaves, it's probably longifolium.

I think that true Albopurpureum is quite rare because it just looks like the smaller, less vigorous, less showy, little brother of Schroderae and in order to show off, some people put the name of Albopurpureum onto their Schroderae in order to seem as if they've got a super good clone of Albopurpureum. There are a lot Schroderae out there labelled as Albopurpureum!

Rick your taller plant seems to be Calurum.

Marilyn; I've never heard of "purchinem". I'm not sure what the writer meant to say. It's hard to tell from your photos; but, there does seem to be a bit of "horn" on the flower on the left. I can't tell in the other photo. From the limited views that I have to work with here, I'd guess your 'Sir Arthur' is also a Schroderae....or better to say, I don't think that it is Albopurpureum.

Okay. Sorry Eric; but, in my humble opinion, Rick's smaller plant is Albopurpureum. You agree with me on that. However, I think that
Gradma M's plant is likely Schoderae and this plant of Gilda's http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg is definately not Albopurpureum. Look at those horns on the pouch. Now compare to Rick's true Albopurpureum. Albopurpureum should not have any hint of horns on the pouch rim and it should have foliage just like Rick's plant.

 

[John M]

Also, it should be noted that in Rick's photo of his true Albopurpureum, the bud is fuzzy. This is expected because schlimii has fuzzy buds and schlimii is a direct parent, contributing half the genetic make-up. However, look at the buds on the other plants....not fuzzy. In these cases, if they are actually Schroderae, then, schlimii is a generation further back (contributing only 25% of the genetic make-up), having less influence and therefore, producing much less fuzz on the buds.

 

[Phrag-Plus]

Very interesting discussion, this is one of the reasons that brought me into hybridization years ago to understand the transmission of genes and characteristics in that group.

I do have a labelled Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur' in my collection to, but always toughed than it was a Schrooderae because those 'horn'.

I'm agreeing with John for most of his explanations, none of the 3 species used in the Albopurpureum cross has horns... Other one look’s like Calurum for me, with its distinct horn...

My experience in Phragmipedium hybridization, (I’m exclusively work on Phrags) shows me than, we can sometime have very small but sometimes huge differences in the transmission of characteristics in the seedlings from the same seedpod (size, leaves, flowers.... ) And guess why I’d name some of my cross as "Brainteaser" and "Bamboozle "...

Marilyn, I never heard "Purchinem" neither, but I’ve seen Pulchellum = Grande x Sedenii and Porphyrum = syn. of Sedenii who can be close in the spelling...

 

[SlipperKing]

My plant on the left, the fake Albopurpureum has a new name now! This fuzzless bud wonder is now Calurum!! Thank You John, Leo, Eric and etc al!!:rollhappy::clap::clap:

PS. It has the nasty habit of "climbing out of the pot". Which species contributes that? schlimii?

 

[NYEric]

I'll have to look at my schlimii's tonight to see if they're stolonous.

 

[John M]

"PS. It has the nasty habit of "climbing out of the pot". Which species contributes that? schlimii?"

Hmmm? This is a physical characteristic that I'm not so knowledgeable about. I don't have any longifolium to look at; but, my schlimii does have a somewhat ascending growth habit. If that characteristic was carried along into Calurum, then, just being a bigger plant, the Calurum would show this more obviously. Maybe Jean-Pierre or Leo can comment on the growth habit of longifolium and let us know what they think?

 

[Phrag-Plus]

Hi Rick,
Some of my longifoliums are doing kind of stolons with times, like other Phrags. But never like those see in some besseae and some of its hybrids... It is the way Phrags are fighting with the environmental changes and competition in nature.

When you do your repotting, did the first new growths are doing it too? Or it is worst over time?

Some plants do it more apparently, when the mix breaks down, like they want to move out of their pot. You’ll have to find the reason why, to much water? Phrags love water but roots need to breathe too... Or the mix is too old and become anaerobic = toxic for the plant.... Or it is just a physical characteristic of your plant...