Paphiopedilum The Last Empress (just registered!)

[DrLeslieEe]

I am including my sanderianum (last two photos) as well so that people can see the example of both parents(*not the specific parents of the plant on the topic)
The pot is 5.5 inches tall(for visual help)

Also I forgot to mention, the curvature and angle of the dorsal is very unique in sandies. See the difference between the two?

 

[Tom-DE]

Also I forgot to mention, the curvature and angle of the dorsal is very unique in sandies. See the difference between the two?

I didn't pay that much attention to that...maybe the dorsal of the hybrid is a little bit more upright

 

[DrLeslieEe]

You are on the right track. The upright leaves are influenced by the phillie as sandie leaves are broad and flexes halfway downwards.

The lighter coloration of the petals with no reddish tint on the lower half is another clue.

As for the pouch line, I have seen some sandies with it but really really light.

The staminode is whiter in all sandie hybrids that have stonei, roths or any if the larger types like kolo and gigantifoliums. Never red.

The segments here are larger than sandies with the dorsal length almost 9.5 cm vs 4-5 cm in all awarded sandies.

Yes a good SY Sanders can have long petals to 70 cm (average of awarded ones were 35 cm) but this Empress will likely get to 80-90 cm in mature larger plants (here it is first bloom and did reach 80 cm according to Andrew).

Sorry my mistake. On second check through awards, the average of petal lengths of SY Sanders was 50 cm. So yours was right on the award level of petal length.

 

[Roth]

Petal lenght on the hybrids is related as well to pot size and the root system heavily. Some nurseries to extend the petal lenght of sands and the hybrids put them in a saucer of water when the spikes appear. A more elegant approach is to kind of overpot them in much bigger pot, minimum 21cm diameter for a normal plant, and root them in that. Rockwool does wonder too.

If the plant roots dry for a couple hours from the time the spikes emerge, you loose a couple cm or more each time of petal lenght.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Petal lenght on the hybrids is related as well to pot size and the root system heavily. Some nurseries to extend the petal lenght of sands and the hybrids put them in a saucer of water when the spikes appear. A more elegant approach is to kind of overpot them in much bigger pot, minimum 21cm diameter for a normal plant, and root them in that. Rockwool does wonder too.

If the plant roots dry for a couple hours from the time the spikes emerge, you loose a couple cm or more each time of petal lenght.

Good to know and thanks for the tip.

 

[spujr]

Petal lenght on the hybrids is related as well to pot size and the root system heavily. Some nurseries to extend the petal lenght of sands and the hybrids put them in a saucer of water when the spikes appear. A more elegant approach is to kind of overpot them in much bigger pot, minimum 21cm diameter for a normal plant, and root them in that. Rockwool does wonder too.

If the plant roots dry for a couple hours from the time the spikes emerge, you loose a couple cm or more each time of petal lenght.

Does this also work on other species? Like to make the petal span of a roth wider, let it sit in water at the time of spike?

 

[Roth]

Does this also work on other species? Like to make the petal span of a roth wider, let it sit in water at the time of spike?

To some extent it does. It makes complex paphs have rounder flowers too... If the plant cannot suck up water when the flower bud, that expands fast, forms and develops, it can change the size, and the roundness/flatness of the flowers to some extent.

 

[Tom-DE]

To some extent it does. It makes complex paphs have rounder flowers too... If the plant cannot suck up water when the flower bud, that expands fast, forms and develops, it can change the size, and the roundness/flatness of the flowers to some extent.

Do you start that when it is in spike or when the flower buds are about to open? We are talking about weeks vs a week or days...I just wonder if it might hurt the plant letting it sit in extra water for weeks.

 

[Roth]

Do you start that when it is in spike or when the flower buds are about to open? We are talking about weeks vs a week or days...I just wonder if it might hurt the plant letting it sit in extra water for weeks.

I do not do it myself, that's why I use rockwool, and before I was keeping the potting mix always wet. As well I am not always interested in making artificial stuff, because the customers are supposed to bloom the plants more or less like I do, after all...

But otherwise it has to start when it is in spike indeed... until the flowers are opened. Weeks for sure. There are many tricks in fact used, even the Cattleya torture tools on Complex Paphiopedilum, on top of keeping the potting mix ultrawet.

At a point, many Taiwanese got awards/larger flowers because they were growing their plants in tightly packed sphagnum moss, that was kept wet to extra wet from the spike coming until the blooming. More recently, they did switch to stone/bark based mixes however....

On a Phalaenopsis, tightly packed sphagnum moss kept moist to wet makes flowers about 20% bigger than if a bark based mix dries out... There are more flowers per spike too. Paphiopedilum are no exception.

Actually, I have a few Maudiae types from Paph Paradise, like Petula's Paradise now established as clumps in rockwool that are on doing their third flower on a spike, in succession. All related to the rockwool and water availability.

 

[Ozpaph]

Roth, are you using Rockwool alone?

 

[GuRu]

And another crop of fake sandies is born

Tony, that's the backside of the coin and lots of hobbyists won't see a differnce to a pure sandie.

 

[Roth]

Roth, are you using Rockwool alone?

Yes pure 1cm cubes rockwool. Mixing them changes the capillarity, and it is not constant in a large greenhouse, so pure 1cm cubes is the most constant from pot to pot.

 

[Roth]

Tony, that's the backside of the coin and lots of hobbiests won't see a differnce to a pure sandie.

They are already widely around as of now... If you bloom 20-30 from a 'seedling batch', you can spot that they are all hybrids. Otherwise, carefully selecting individuals in bloom, like Vietnamense, and there is no way to know... except if you self it and grow the progeny, and even so, generation after generation it will be more and more difficult.

There is another nearly extinct variety which is hennissianum var. album. Most of the ones sold are Maudiae hybrids, and that's easy to figure out. The original hennissianum album, like fowlei album, give colored flowers when crossed with albinos Maudiae. They were slow growing, and very hard to keep alive back then. Any of the 'easier' growing hennissianum album gives albino progeny when crossed with albino Maudiae, simply because they are crosses of albino Maudiae...

 

[spujr]

Yes pure 1cm cubes rockwool. Mixing them changes the capillarity, and it is not constant in a large greenhouse, so pure 1cm cubes is the most constant from pot to pot.

Interesting. I recently just tried a perlite-rockwool mix on my roths given the success some here have had, but I'm very concerned about the plants having enough oxygen in the root zone. I can't imagine just pure rockwool, I'm guessing the pots must be very porous and you have a lot of airflow in the greenhouse.

(Sorry Leslie for taking your thread on a tangent topic)

 

[Tom-DE]

I would not worry about highjack that much...I think Leslie has thick skin on him.
In my opinion, the success(feasible or not) of this method has a lot to do with the growing conditions. The environment of a huge greenhouse is very different from an indoor growing setup or a small "greenhouse" with minimum equipment, I am talking about all the factors here...like growing medium(organic/inorganic), rh, air movement, temperatures all of that. I don't let my plants(especially Paphs) dry out completely normally and I do keep the flowering plants moist/with a little bit more water, but sitting in water for weeks may not be wise for my current growing condition.

 

[nine]

Dr. Ee is a champ!
Sorry for the further hijack; what in the world are Cattleya torture tools?

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I would not worry about highjack that much...I think Leslie has thick skin on him.
In my opinion, the success(feasible or not) of this method has a lot to do with the growing conditions. The environment of a huge greenhouse is very different from an indoor growing setup or a small "greenhouse" with minimum equipment, I am talking about all the factors here...like growing medium(organic/inorganic), rh, air movement, temperatures all of that. I don't let my plants(especially Paphs) dry out completely normally and I do keep the flowering plants moist/with a little bit more water, but sitting in water for weeks may not be wise for my current growing condition.

I do have thick skin lol. I’m diplomatically trained in international schools in my youth lol.

A good discussion where we exchange ideas and learnings are fantastic!

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

I just registered with approval from the hybridizer for the name of this hybrid between Paph. Shin-Yi Sanders x sanderianum. With megadoses of sanderianum this hybrids screams sanderianum with its long approx 75 cm petals (possibly the longest in a sandie hybrid). See for yourself:

View attachment 45118View attachment 45119View attachment 45120View attachment 45121

However, there are many components of the flower that say a sandie hybrid. Let’s see if you people can spot them! This time I will not provide any clues lol.

For size reference, the width of the staminode is 1 cm.

Flowered beautifully by my orchid buddy Andrew of Roehampton Orchids in Toronto indoors under lights with 4 flowers. He gave it a cultivar name ‘Kraken’.

The name chosen for grex to honor the Empress Wu of the Tang Dynasty who manipulated her way from a commoner to the ruling figure in a male dominated society. The ribbons resembled the headdress of her crown.

Is there anyway to get this cross in seedlings or NBS? I absolutely love it, not perfect but I really don't care.

 

[Justin]

I just registered with approval from the hybridizer for the name of this hybrid between Paph. Shin-Yi Sanders x sanderianum. With megadoses of sanderianum this hybrids screams sanderianum with its long approx 75 cm petals (possibly the longest in a sandie hybrid). See for yourself:

View attachment 45118View attachment 45119View attachment 45120View attachment 45121

However, there are many components of the flower that say a sandie hybrid. Let’s see if you people can spot them! This time I will not provide any clues lol.

For size reference, the width of the staminode is 1 cm.

Flowered beautifully by my orchid buddy Andrew of Roehampton Orchids in Toronto indoors under lights with 4 flowers. He gave it a cultivar name ‘Kraken’.

The name chosen for grex to honor the Empress Wu of the Tang Dynasty who manipulated her way from a commoner to the ruling figure in a male dominated society. The ribbons resembled the headdress of her crown.

Congrats and very nice clone! The flower looks basically like a pure sand (haven't seen the stripe on the pouch before but wonder if it would be consistent across other plants in this gex). The non-wavy leaves show the phil influence.

 

[spujr]

I think the flower/plant is very nice, and special kudos for maintaining the honesty of the pedigree when it would be really easy to pass it off as another sanderianum.

That said, I feel like background doesn't really add to the breeding. I'm not a judge and this is just my opinion, but IF someone was trying to be sneaky and pass it off as a pure species, it would not win any rewards. There is probably a level of hybrid vigor/ease of growth not captured in a photo here that could translate to larger flowers, but that is about it. Again, just my opinion.

Now something like a sanderianum x anitum BC2 I could see adding better quality than what you would find in either parents.