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Paph Watering Philosophy

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by masaccio, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. Mar 13, 2019 #21

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    Yes, that was about the part I snorted into my coffee and got weird glances from everyone else in the office :p.

    Lol! Good one! ;)
     
  2. Mar 14, 2019 #22

    richgarrison

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    well isn't this a happy coincidence....

    At the paph symposium in Apopka last fall, Jason Fisher introduced that product to the audience. Said he was moving to eb and flow with the product providing water oxygenation as advertised... Turns out there are a few products on the market that do similar things... one from Dramm (See this link - http://www.dramm.com/html/main.isx?sub=616)

    so that had me wondering about any orchid growers incorporating the theory into their growing. Seems like you'd want to be able to make some measurements of something (yes that broad) in order to know what it is you are actually doing, and then some other metrics (other than confirmation bias) to determine that it truly helped...

    Certainly seems like there are no listeners on this thread that have poked around at that....
     
  3. Mar 14, 2019 #23

    shade131

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    I doubt it'll hurt but I'm very skeptical about the "science" underpinning their claims.
     
  4. Mar 14, 2019 #24

    southernbelle

    southernbelle

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    The people I know (and trust) who use this say it helps protect against root rot after using it (and directly comparing with other plants of same type using other water.) Also more prolific root growth. Direct comparison experiment. Did you watch the actual use video? I guess I would say,
    you can’t argue with someone’s experience when you haven’t tried it.
     
  5. Mar 14, 2019 #25

    southernbelle

    southernbelle

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    I’m not an expert or a scientist, but do know a scientist who uses this. I have learned this about it: The optimum temp of water to hold the O2 is 65 degrees, I believe. The statements about 50% more dissolved oxygen were based on measuring with a TDO meter. I don’t have one, as the ones I could find are quite expensive. The time frame of repeating the procedure is once a day, so that would indicate how long it takes it to dissipate (at least in a bucket of water). It’s certainly not hurting anything. Why not ask the company the questions? That’s what I did. They were more than willing to talk to me.
     
  6. Mar 14, 2019 #26

    southernbelle

    southernbelle

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    (QUOTE: What "THEY" do has absolutely no bearing on what WE should do!)
    I understand and that was mentioned by them, but obviously if all those things (that you mentioned as variables) are taken into consideration it is helpful to some people.
     
  7. Mar 14, 2019 #27

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    First off, I did indeed watch the video they provided. I see no real discernible differences between the groups except in the case of the dendrobium and possibly the macodes. But the dendrobium was the only one that showed a stark difference. However, there are a number of other explanations as to why those might be different. The roots on the phrag he pulled out didn't look the least bit different to me (I saw approximately the same amount of unhealthy/healthy root mass in both). The hard and fast truth of it is, show me some numbers, and I will believe it. They didn't actually quantify anything, and the number of plants they had in their comparison was too small to actually make any claims (they only had like 4-5 of each plant... at that level ANY differences could easily just be natural variability).

    Second, I have no problem with them (or you, or anybody) saying that this helps stimulate growth in their plants. It might, who knows (and, like any grower, I have my fair share of things that I do for my plants that probably make no difference other than to make me feel better). What I do have a problem with is them saying that difference in growth rates has to do with dissolved oxygen content when they have absolutely no evidence that this is the case. There are a number of alternative explanations and factors that could be leading to increased growth here. For example, electrolysis also produces weak acid and base (along with a host of other compounds depending on what is dissolved in the source water) that has been shown to have antibacterial/fungal properties. This could be leading to reduced root rot in and of itself and has absolutely nothing to do with increased availability of dissolved oxygen. In summary - to say "using electrolyzed water seems to improve plant vigor" is a perfectly acceptable statement that I have NO problems with; however, to say "using electrolyzed water improves plant vigor due to increased dissolved oxygen" with absolutely no proof whatsoever that this is actually what is going on only serves to spread misinformation and myths among growers. These then get perpetuated and can cause serious problems and misunderstanding in the future. Unsubstantiated claims like the above are the enemy of good science and good horticultural practice.

    And what does your science friend think of them making broad claims based on presenting only circumstantial evidence? Or of presenting plots with no error bars?

    I am a scientist. I hold a doctorate in chemical engineering, have published in peer-reviewed journals, and have reviewed quite a few papers on behalf of journals myself. So I consider myself qualified to comment on their findings (part of being in science is learning to take criticism from other scientists). In science you are supposed to present the full body of evidence to try and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what you have actually works (and not only works, but works for the reason that you claim it is working). If your data can't convince me that it actually works (or there are alternative explanations as to why it is working), then you shouldn't be making sweeping claims that are so mechanistically specific.

    This is just straight-up not true. Where did you find this information? The solubility of oxygen in water at standard pressure increases with decreasing temperature. The "max" dissolved oxygen capacity would technically be at 0 C liquid water (right before it freezes). However, if you watered your plants with this, they would die because it's freezing cold :p (see this paper - link)

    Ok. So where are their measurements? And what kind of airstone were they using (different kinds produce different size bubbles are going to diffuse oxygen more or less efficiently)? Also, if their claim really is that increased dissolved oxygen is responsible for the increase in growth, then I would expect to see a comparison with a regular micro-bubbler (the micro-bubbler should show some improvement over no bubbler at all (because it provides some oxygen), and then the electrolysis system should show improvement over the bubbler). This would be better, compelling even, but still not sufficient to make such specific mechanistic claims (another key tennent of science that can get you into trouble - "correlation DOES NOT imply causation"). I don't see any evidence that they ever even conducted this test at all on their website. Or anywhere else that I can find. At best, they have anecdotal evidence that isn't even that convincing (in science, this is called "hand-waving" and it can get you into a lot of trouble).

    Where are their measurements showing the oxygen content in the water over that period of time? Just because that is how frequently they used the solution DOES NOT in any universe mean that this is the actual timeframe of dissipation.

    It may not be hurting the plants. Might even actually be having some kind of beneficial effect. In that respect you are absolutely correct. And if it makes you feel better to use it, then more power to you. Like I said, I have my fair share of superstitious things that I like to use with my plants that probably don't actually do anything other than ease my own mind (but then, I am not going to go try and convince other people that they are scientifically sound and absolutely make a difference). However, it is hurting the hobby in general (new hobbyists in particular) by spreading "facts" based on circumstantial evidence and making sweeping general claims that will be perpetuated and parroted by growers when, in fact, they simply aren't true. Even if it did turn out to be true at a later date (which I am skeptical of) it would be irresponsible to go around, right now, talking about it like it is a proven fact.

    I did send them an email asking for specific data relating to those measurements and whether they did comparison tests with a micro-bubbler. They have yet to respond.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    mccallen and Edward Seeley like this.
  8. Mar 14, 2019 #28

    Linus_Cello

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    https://www.orchidweb.com/blog/the-...kovachii/?mc_cid=4aed687dc7&mc_eid=831872681c

    "And lastly, if you really want to go the extra mile, you can purchase and use the O2 Grow super oxygenator. This high boost of oxygen results in a 20% growth speed increase after we tested a wide variety of orchid genera."
     
  9. Mar 15, 2019 at 12:36 AM #29

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    It may or may not actually result in a boost in growth. Again, how can we tell for sure? They tell us nothing about how they came up with this 20% figure. Are we talking leaf span? Total plant mass? Root mass? Or did he just look at the tray and say "eh... that looks about 20% bigger"? Once again though, even if there is a boost in growth, we have zero evidence that the increase in oxygen level is the actual cause of that boost.

    In fact, the most "scientific" claim I can find about the system is in a review from gardenandgreenhouse.net which states:

    "The University of Minnesota and the University of Tennessee have each tested the O2 Grow Oxygen Generators on a variety of plants, all with favorable results. The University of Tennessee saw a 20% increase in yield (root weight) with lavender."

    However, although this specifies that the observed increase was in root weight, they do not cite the study, or give specifics, and I can't find any evidence of these results ever being published anywhere (which in academia is never a good sign). Also, if the study(ies) in question were funded by the company, then that seriously calls into question the integrity of the results (conflicts of interest).

    I believe this is apropos - http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-02-18
     
    Tony likes this.
  10. Mar 15, 2019 at 12:43 PM #30

    southernbelle

    southernbelle

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    Wow, not sure where to begin. You are obviously very passionate about your knowledge. I guess the issue I have is that you are defaulting to criticizing and negativity before you’ve had your questions answered. I called the number on the website. The owner (who was in the video) answered and spoke to me and answered my questions. He will be happy to do the same for you and can (or can’t) give you the research you are questioning. I don’t know, but it might be better to assume the best until you have all the info, rather than the worst, especially on a public forum.
     
  11. Mar 15, 2019 at 4:23 PM #31

    richgarrison

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    THanx for posting that.... at least it corroborates what i posted originally....

    (and if one keeps their attitude radar turned off :) ) all the rest of this conversation has also been useful

    fun conversation!
     
  12. Mar 15, 2019 at 7:08 PM #32

    Tom-DE

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    Watering is always an interesting topic, isn't it? Here is my advice, water your plants when they need it. It can be more general and correct than that!

    Take all advice with a grain of salt! Some posts here are genuine while others are for attentions or other motives. Be open-minded but find your own ways also!
     
  13. Mar 15, 2019 at 7:36 PM #33

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    Ok, ok. I perhaps got a little heated and overzealous in my last couple posts. My apologies to both of you if either of you felt personally attacked. Companies using incomplete or misrepresented science to shill products is a big pet peeve of mine and something I tend to get fairly passionate about (as you might have noticed). Like I said, if you feel it is working well, then I am not trying to crush your dreams. I am not even trying to say that it absolutely doesn't work (through some mechanism, perhaps an increase in oxygen, perhaps another route). I certainly haven't tested it, and at $200 for the base system and $60 for replacement electrodes, I don't have any intentions too.

    That said, I did email them asking them for additional details about the questions I raised here in a polite and non-confrontational manner. I will post any updates (and promise to try and keep the drama to a minimum). Who knows, maybe they do have the data to back up their claims and, for whatever reason, just decided not to show it.

    Tom is right, when it comes to watering, it is all fairly personal and specific to your area and setup. A lot of times it is just something you have to kinda figure out for yourself.
     
  14. Mar 15, 2019 at 8:07 PM #34

    Ray

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    Watering aerates and oxygenates the potting medium too.
     
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