Paph. lowii -Horizontal Form-

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Drorchid, Nov 5, 2008.

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  1. Nov 5, 2008 #1
    We have had a plant of Paph. lowii here in the greenhouse that has always been a little different compared to the regular Paph. lowii. This plant originated from Kalimantan (Borneo). The differences are:

    The flower looks different, the petals stand out more horizontal, the petals don't twist as much, and the dorsal sepal is green. The regular lowii usually has some brown to purple pigments in the lower half of the dorsal sepal, especially along the veins.

    The plant itself is more compact compared to a regular lowii.

    The bloom season is different, it usually blooms 6 months later compared to the regular lowii. Our regular lowii's usually bloom around February or so. This form usually blooms around August.

    Here are some pictures of the flowers and the plant:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here is a flower of a regular Paph. lowii:

    [​IMG]

    Jerry has made one cross with it, and crossed it with Paph rothschildianum. the resulting cross looks very different compared to Paph. Julius (roth x lowii).

    Here is a regular Paph. Julius:

    [​IMG]

    This is a cross of Paph. lowii 'Horizontal' x rothschildianum:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So, Olaf and Lance and any taxonomists out there, do you think this form falls within the natural variation of the species Paph. lowii, or are we dealing with a different variety of Paph. lowii, or would you even consider it to be a different species? A few years later we did receive a second plant that was very similar to this form, so right now we have 2 plants of this type.

    Robert
     
  2. Nov 5, 2008 #2

    Heather

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    Interesting...I'm looking forward to this conversation!
     
  3. Nov 5, 2008 #3

    Kyle

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    Also, I recieved an album lowii from Sam Tsui that has a different growth habit then other lowii I've seen. The leaves have a verticle growth habit. Like a V. What is the history of this plant? The only picture I could find of the flower on the fox valley site shows a flower different then either lowii shown above.

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  4. Nov 5, 2008 #4

    NYEric

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    Phrag besseae! :crazy:
     
  5. Nov 5, 2008 #5

    JeanLux

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    OMG, I can't help for this discussion, just have a normal lowii, but always admire the lots of pretty plants with beautiful blooms, you have!!!! Jean
     
  6. Nov 5, 2008 #6

    labskaus

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    I'd like to learn more about the variation in lowii. Is it related to Geography, like different island = different different colour form? Is it possible to identify the origin of a lowii by looking at its petal stance or spot pattern? Or do these different types occur randomly throughout the area?

    Robert, Fabrice and myself posted pics of lowii "Doll" x self recently, which share some features with your plant.

    Very interesting, these two Julius. I assume these look typical for each cross?

    Best wishes, Carsten
     
  7. Nov 5, 2008 #7

    nikv

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    Robert,

    Will you have any of the seedlings from this cross for sale any time soon?

    Best Regards,
    Nik
     
  8. Nov 5, 2008 #8

    Yes, a few years ago I selfed this plant. They have been out of the lab for almost 4 years now, so I think they will be blooming by next year or the year after.

    http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1383

    Robert
     
  9. Nov 5, 2008 #9

    slippertalker

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    Paph lowii has the largest geographical distribution of all of the multifloral paph species, hence the variation is considerable. Both of these examples are well within the concept of lowii. This species is quite variable in size, shape and color.....Also, they grow in different ecosystems that differ in elevation and some isolation. Many are epiphytes, typically growing in trees.
     
  10. Nov 5, 2008 #10

    SlipperKing

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    Most interesting Robert. As you probably know, there are a lot of lowii's out on the market bred from the clone 'Princehouse' These plants also display a more horizonal petal stance. I wonder if your particular type of lowii has anything to do with it. It would be interesting to know the history behind 'Princehouse' (I beleive this is the correct clonal name)
     
  11. Nov 5, 2008 #11
    Is this the clone you are referring to?

    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3003

    To me that looks more like a regular lowii. I am not familiar with the 'Princehouse' clone. Our "horizontal" form has more horizontal petals, and a more green colored dorsal. So far I know our 'Horizontal' clone is a jungle collected plant, that originated from Kalimantan, but I will have to ask Jerry to confirm that.

    Robert
     
  12. Nov 5, 2008 #12

    SlipperKing

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    Robert, I personally have not seen a princehouse clone until now. What I do have is a horizonal lowii (not as much as yours) where Princehouse is one of the parents. Obviously, I should be more inrterested in tracking down the other parent! Even the awarded lowii of Frank Smith's has horizonal petals. Again, not to the extreme as the OL plant.
    I just think it would be a real shame and nightmare if some taxo decides this plant is a valid species in the lowii complex and that wasn't pick up soon enought before breeding with the "normal" lowiis. Creating "intermedate complex" nightmare.
    As one forum member has already pointed out, lowii has one of the largest habits and wide variation is expected. Still, if the OL plant is only a varity, keeping it a pure varity would be nice!
     
  13. Nov 5, 2008 #13

    ORG

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    Dear Robert,
    in the last time some plants came from Sulawesi which looks similar to your plant. But it is really difficult with the Paph. lowii, there is a big variability in this species.
    Also when this clone is really beautiful, it would be the best way, to use only a clonal name but not to describe a special forma or variety.

    Best greetings

    Olaf
     
  14. Nov 6, 2008 #14

    Rick

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    It's been a while since I saw one, but I think the Super Fly clone has fairly straight out petals too.

    About one of 10 flowers on my lowii the petals will be straight (still slightly drooping though). I think the trait may be common but recessive in the species with different clones expressing it strongly.
     
  15. Nov 6, 2008 #15

    SlipperFan

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    Interesting discussion. I've never seen a lowii with such a horizontal stance.

    I love your Julius, Robert. It is truly gorgeous.
     
  16. Nov 6, 2008 #16
    Lance mentioned it in the lynniae thread, if you have his book, there is a pic that is very similar to this.
    Using this type for Julius changes everything, I'm not sure for the better.:(
     
  17. Nov 6, 2008 #17

    Scott Ware

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    This looks just like some plants I got from Ray Rands several years ago. At the time he was referring to them as "White dorsal from Borneo". (I think I can hear Olaf chuckling.) Well, they sure as heck don't have white dorsals - they're clear green with a lighter edge at the top - and the form and color are nearly identical to the flower in Robert's photo.
     
  18. Nov 6, 2008 #18

    Fabrice

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    Nice flower; I bought your lowii "horizontal"X self this year; It's a slow grower but it grows!:)

    Look at my lowii currently in bloom. The right flower is similar to your "horizontal".
    And for the left flower, the seller tells me it's from the same seedling; So, it's a sister plant but very different!:confused:
    As soon as I can, I will search more informations.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2008
  19. Nov 6, 2008 #19

    SlipperKing

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    Now that is interesting Fabrice. The one pictured on the left reminds me a little of richardianum
     
  20. Nov 6, 2008 #20
    Okay, here is my take on things, I have to agree with slippertalker and Olaf. Paph. lowii grows in such a wide area and wide range of habitats you will see a lot of variation within this species. Some populations may get isolated from other populations and due to different selection pressures different morphological characteristics will pop up. Some populations will even have so many characteristics that are different compared to the "regular" or "wild" type, that they are on the verge of becoming separate species.

    Examples of those, which would fall under the lowii complex are Paph. richardianum and Paph. lynniae, obviusly they are very closely related to Paph. lowii, but as they have probably been isolated from the rest of the lowii gene pool for many generations they are becoming separate species.

    Now it is in the eye of the beholder to give them the "species" name, or a "variety" name. Some taxonomist would lump them together with lowii, while others would call them different species. The lowii 'Horizontal' is a similar case, but in my opinion the differences compared to the regular lowii are not great enough to call it a different species.

    Another thing we are dealing with is the number of plants or sample size. This Paph. lowii 'Horizontal' is just one plant that is growing in a greenhouse. Is it just a genetic abnormality, or is it a true sample of a population that all look similar. Just like Fabrice points out within a batch of seedlings you can have plants the look like the 'Horizontal' type, and plants that almost look like Paph. richardianum. I don't think you can base your conclusion from just one plant. However if you would discover a whole population of plants in the wild that all share the same characteristics than you could say that it is a different variety or a different species (depending on the characteristics).

    One thing I do find interesting about this plant is the blooming season, it always blooms 6 months later than the regular lowii's.

    Robert
     

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