P K Photos from Isaias

[Heather]

You asked why no one talks about the black market problem and now you say "too many questions"? Thanks for reminding me!.

I am going to keep weighing in here because the admin. team has discussed this issue.

If you have knowledge you are encouraged to post it here. It isn't necessarily tolerated elsewhere so this is the place. IF you want it to be known, then post it here and we'll all know.

That's all from me this evening....night.

 

[isaias m rolando]

....night Heather, and all the slippernuts.
Have a very good night...

 

[Kyle]

you forgot to say "play fair"

Is it corruption that prevents INRENA from shutting down the black market?

And where are all the black market PK going? Europe? USA? Canada?

Kyle

 

[Heather]

....night Heather, and all the slippernuts.
Have a very good night...

Thanks Isaias....I am very much enjoying your participation here.

I'm not trying to shut down the conversation. I am trying to encourage it to keep going because it is very constructive and I think we all want to know the answers to all of these questions!

Just because I am off to bed doesn't mean the rest of you should be.

By all means, CARRY ON!

Edit - ps - play fair. ; )

 

[ohio-guy]

It seems to me that the growers who are offering reasonably priced hybrids of this exciting new species are helping to reduce the demand for the wild collected plants. I realize that there will always be those who want wild plants, but once the market is flooded with lab grown plants, at least the desire can be redirected and the origional species plants may have some chance to recover.

As far as the problem with corrupt officials and government agencies, I truly doubt we can change what is the way of the world just because it concerns something that we all here seem to care about. I guess the only hope if new attactive species are found, would be to keep it quiet until a mass of plants can be produced and availible to discourage the inevitable poaching. But that is not very realistic or practical to think it would happen.

While comparing the illegal plant trade to drug trafficing seems a bit extreme, I know there are some similarities. But if the end desire is to allow the plants to survive in a hostile world, then maybe their best chance is to collect a good sample and protect them in a safe controlled environment.

It would be a gesture of good faith if the growers who eventually do profit would set aside a portion of their stock to repatriate them into their natural habitat in 10 or 20 years after the hub bub has settled down.

 

[isaias m rolando]

Finally a very, very wise and not passioned comment!
This is what really matters: to reduce pressure on the wild material can only be obtained by artificial propagation and mass production...and verybody's EDUCATION, including INRENA of course.
Thank you very much OHIO-GUY

 

[toddybear]

Well said Ohio-guy! I alluded to that in my previous post in regards to Paph. rothschildianum. Poaching of newly discovered 'anything', especially a rather flamboyant orchid, will happen...that's part of human nature. Collectors want the 'new' whatever it takes. We (us on the forum) are not the ones who are causing the problem...we have the patience to wait until a new plant's population is built-up legally, however, for every one concerned orchid grower, there are far more who really don't give a damn, as long as they get that rare plant.

So the sad reality is that most if not all the PK will be exploited and the plant may well become extinct in the wild. It would not be the first 'creature' to fall victim to overzealous collectors. The poorer countries would unlikely have the resources to protect a newly discovered plant (or any creature for that matter) from unlawful collection (no insult meant to Peru but compared to USA, Canada, Australia and say the UK, Peru is poor). If that orchid had been discovered in the States, then it could well be better protected.

So now it falls upon the legal 'guardians' of PK to help spread the seeds/plants of PK throughout the rest of the world so that the pressure to collect the wild plants drops (assuming any are left by that time!). Peruflora has 5 different clones in their possession...a descent gene pool for them to reintroduce the plant once the 'wild' demand drops to the point where it is no longer profitable to the illegal collectors....as Ohio-guy said, repatriation. PK would not be the first nor will it be the last to have to go that route.

 

[li'l frog]

Get your questions answered

There was a thread somewhere on this forum that said Manrique will be speaking in the US. If you have questions about Phrag kovachii (syn peruvianum), why don't you go there and ask him? He is actually growing them, and can tell you about spikes, bloom time, flower size and color. It's a lot closer than Peru.

 

[NYEric]

1st of all: Lance, please remember how difficult it can be to deal w/ another language. I'm sure that if Isaias felt he couldn't comment on something he would say it.
2nd: The levels of endemic corruption, from developing nations such as industrializing China to Third World countries is a major factor. If measures against corruption here in the USA weren't so severe it would happen here also. The people in areas where new species can be found must have a way to make profit while not totally sacrificing the local environments. If local governments have a way to allow major growers to get the raw materials to mass produce the species [similar to the IRENA-CJM, Peruflora, etc dealing], which wouldn't favor one grower for profit, then maybe the locals wouldn't supply the poachers. I know the CITES worked in removing poaching to US growers to a major extent. Also someone must make the effort to enlighten the Govts of the problems w/ deforestation for any reasons. The areas where undiscovered plants which will provide medical and chemical benefits are also the areas where new orchids will be discovered.

 

[Ron-NY]

it makes perfect sense that once the demand for something drops so does it value and the need for it to be sold on the Black Market. This is how it has always been from tulips to besseae. It shall be no different with PK. Fortunately, ,please excuse the pun, the seeds have been sown putting PK on the same path. At least at this time, PK's habitat appears to be remote enough not to be endangered. This will allow reintroduction of PK in the future from the 15 plants that are being protected with INRENA'S control and their progeny.

Has future reintroduction of PK been discussed by the Peruvian Orchid Club?

The pressure on the jungles go so much deeper than this one issue. There is deforestation, receding cloud forests from global warming and pressures from a growing population.

 

[Kyle]

Unfortunatly, there is a lag time between when international demad decreases and the locals who are taking the plants stop taking them. Hopefully it will be soon that the locals realize that it isn't worth there time to take these plants.

I'm bound to get yelled at for this, but I suspect that PK will be just fine in the wild in a few years. There will be no need for artificial introduction of seedlings.

The two labs who have been expoting flasks have done a good job distributing the seedlings.

INRENA should require that the growers share genetic material, instead of issuing more permits to take plants from the wild. Afterall, they own the plants.

Kyle

 

[NYEric]

INRENA should require that the growers share genetic material, instead of issuing more permits to take plants from the wild. Afterall, they own the plants.

Kyle

I think the issue is more one of enforcement!

 

[Ron-NY]

Unfortunatly, there is a lag time between when international demad decreases and the locals who are taking the plants stop taking them. Hopefully it will be soon that the locals realize that it isn't worth there time to take these plants.

I'm bound to get yelled at for this, but I suspect that PK will be just fine in the wild in a few years. There will be no need for artificial introduction of seedlings.

The two labs who have been expoting flasks have done a good job distributing the seedlings.

INRENA should require that the growers share genetic material, instead of issuing more permits to take plants from the wild. Afterall, they own the plants.

Kyle

PK may just be fine in the wild in a few years but can that chance be taken?

I agree that sharing of genetic material would be wise. The other plants are from an area remote from the first population and therefore maintaining the genetics from that group would also be important. Inbreeding can bring out recessive traits that may not lead to survival of the species.

 

[Kyle]

PK may just be fine in the wild in a few years but can that chance be taken?

Inbreeding can bring out recessive traits that may not lead to survival of the species.

My comments about PK in the wild was a response to those who say one day they will be extripated. Of course I believe that measure should be taken to protect the habitat and stop plants to from being taken.

The genetic material is out there to prevent inbreeding. It just has to be managed. From INRENAs prospective how does one decide which grower should get the extra plants?

Kyle

 

[kentuckiense]

It seems like the buzzword in this thread is "reintroduction." Unfortunately, I really doubt it is going to be that simple.

Plants propagated now are essentially a "snapshot" of the alleles and allele frequencies present in the current populations. Ten or 20 years down the road, when people suggest to reintroduce, natural genetic drift (and probably even some selection due to an ever changing environment) will likely have changed the alleles and allele frequencies of the (hopefully) remnant populations. The reintroduced plants could cause outbreeding depression and render the entire population unviable. Remember, when propagating from seed in a sterile medium, we're allowing the growth of a hell of a lot of plants that simply would not have the alleles that it takes to germinate and grow in the wild.

I'm not saying reintroduction won't work. I'm just saying that it's a whole lot more complicated than just growing some plants from seed and putting them back in their natural habitats. Maybe someone could do some population genetics on P. kovachii and we could learn about some breeding patterns?

Once again, in-situ conservation will always be best.

 

[toddybear]

I did not mean it to sound that repatriation was a simple thing...yes you do need as much genetic variation as possible for a plant to adapt to a changing environment. At least it's an option should, if or when the time comes.

Anyone out there looking to work on a PHD program? The population ecology of PK would make a wonderful project (I am speaking from some experience as I did my MSc on the blooming ecology of Platanthera dilatata).

 

[Kyle]

That sort of parallels what I was saying in the other thread. I don't think much genetic drift will happen in 20 years. Considering the generation time for the these plants is about 7+ years, and the original plants could very well still be alive and contirbuting genetic material to the 'pool'.

In the wild such a small proportion of flowers produce seed, a small percentage of those germinate and a smaller percentage of those bloom. Sounds grim, but in reality its sustainable, and even allows the for some resilience. If we introduce artificially propagated seed we may be introducing genes that never would see the light of day if it were not for the hand of man. I think reintroduction should be the absolute last resort.

Kyle

 

[kentuckiense]

If we introduce artificially propagated seed we may be introducing genes that never would see the light of day if it were not for the hand of man.

Yeah, I think this is the real crux of the issue; moreso than genetic drift.

 

[gonewild]

1st of all: Lance, please remember how difficult it can be to deal w/ another language. I'm sure that if Isaias felt he couldn't comment on something he would say it

.

I do remember how difficult it is to deal with another language, I deal with it everyday. I would very much like to here Isaias's comments and opinions and his reasons why he has them. Not just the standard academic "stop the black market" reason.

2nd: The levels of endemic corruption, from developing nations such as industrializing China to Third World countries is a major factor. If measures against corruption here in the USA weren't so severe it would happen here also.

It does happen here, at all levels.

The people in areas where new species can be found must have a way to make profit while not totally sacrificing the local environments.

How do people in Moyabomba profit from kovachii?

If local governments have a way to allow major growers to get the raw materials to mass produce the species [similar to the IRENA-CJM, Peruflora, etc dealing], which wouldn't favor one grower for profit, then maybe the locals wouldn't supply the poachers.

The poachers will always need to supply the local consumption. Millions of "poor" people in Peru want a pot of the famous orchid at their house too.
The gardens in Lima (all inclusive) are fantastic and beautiful every house will want a bed of kovachii lining the walkway.

I know the CITES worked in removing poaching to US growers to a major extent. Also someone must make the effort to enlighten the Govts of the problems w/ deforestation for any reasons. The areas where undiscovered plants which will provide medical and chemical benefits are also the areas where new orchids will be discovered.

The government of Peru is very enlightened about the problem of deforestation, but as yet no one has offered them a way to house and feed their demanding population without harvesting the natural resources. But the problem is little of the profits go to the mass of the people.

 

[gonewild]

Unfortunatly, there is a lag time between when international demad decreases and the locals who are taking the plants stop taking them. Hopefully it will be soon that the locals realize that it isn't worth there time to take these plants.

I'm bound to get yelled at for this, but I suspect that PK will be just fine in the wild in a few years. There will be no need for artificial introduction of seedlings.

The two labs who have been expoting flasks have done a good job distributing the seedlings.

INRENA should require that the growers share genetic material, instead of issuing more permits to take plants from the wild. Afterall, they own the plants.

Kyle

I agree with you Kyle. Except the part about not issuing new permits. INRENA needs to issue new permits to any and all qualified applicants. To reduce the the corruption and increase availability we need more nurseries producing more plants. Not more plants in the hands of only a "select' few.

What if an earthquake hits Lima? Do you think anyone will save the kovachii gene pool buried under a mound of concrete? Yeah I know, that is far fetched but think about it and other reasons.