P K Photos from Isaias

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Ron-NY said:
PK may just be fine in the wild in a few years but can that chance be taken?

I agree that sharing of genetic material would be wise. The other plants are from an area remote from the first population and therefore maintaining the genetics from that group would also be important. Inbreeding can bring out recessive traits that may not lead to survival of the species.

Every different geographic genetic group should be collected and reproduced. But care should be taken not to mix the genetics between groups if the desire is to reintroduce to the wild. Shouldn't pure genetic strains be maintained if the intent is reintroduction.
 
kentuckiense said:
It seems like the buzzword in this thread is "reintroduction." Unfortunately, I really doubt it is going to be that simple.

Plants propagated now are essentially a "snapshot" of the alleles and allele frequencies present in the current populations. Ten or 20 years down the road, when people suggest to reintroduce, natural genetic drift (and probably even some selection due to an ever changing environment) will likely have changed the alleles and allele frequencies of the (hopefully) remnant populations. The reintroduced plants could cause outbreeding depression and render the entire population unviable. Remember, when propagating from seed in a sterile medium, we're allowing the growth of a hell of a lot of plants that simply would not have the alleles that it takes to germinate and grow in the wild.

I'm not saying reintroduction won't work. I'm just saying that it's a whole lot more complicated than just growing some plants from seed and putting them back in their natural habitats. Maybe someone could do some population genetics on P. kovachii and we could learn about some breeding patterns?

Once again, in-situ conservation will always be best.

I agree.

Reintroduction in the case of kovachii is just being used as a political sales tool and popular excuse. No one even really knows if the species is really even threatened.
 
gonewild said:
I agree with you Kyle. Except the part about not issuing new permits. INRENA needs to issue new permits to any and all qualified applicants. To reduce the the corruption and increase availability we need more nurseries producing more plants. Not more plants in the hands of only a "select' few.

Agreed, which is why I don't think any one grower should get extra plants. INRENA should treat everyone the same.

Kyle
 
Here are two questions for Isaias an Pablo.....

What is the price in Lima for a legal plant of Kovachii if a Peruvian wants to purchase one?

What is the price of a legal flask of kovachii seedlings in Lima if a Peruvian wants to purchase one?
 
NYEric said:
Is that necessary?

Are you referring to this quote from Lance?
gonewild said:
Every different geographic genetic group should be collected and reproduced. But care should be taken not to mix the genetics between groups if the desire is to reintroduce to the wild. Shouldn't pure genetic strains be maintained if the intent is reintroduction.

If so, then the answer to your question is yes, it is absolutely positively necessary.
 
In reality, captive population's gene frequencies don't last

There is a problem with the whole idea that long term maintainance of a gene pool is possible in captivity. To illustrate. In 1990 I had 12 jungle collected (collected before 1988 rules change) besseae. Today only 4 of them are still alive. So I have 4 remaining snapshots of the "original" besseae gene pool. I consider this a 75% failure to meet the challenge of preserving the wild gene pool diversity. My sample population has lost 75% of its alleles. For you long time growers, how many jungle collected plants do you still have alive? Answer honestly, most will be forced to admit that very few of these plants survive the long haul. You don't have to answer here, but I would be surprised if many did significantly better than I have.
This example is an illustration to the false argument that a gene pool can be preserved in captivity. Reality is, none of you are consistient enough growers out there to guarrantee that any plant (each plant being a unique snapshot of the wild gene distribution) will survive in captivity for any significant length of time. And for you newbies, don't chime in "well some botanic garden or some other institution with experts should do it". Institutions have horrible track records when it comes to long term species preservations. Just ask Russ Vernon about the Wheeler Collection of Cattleya species at Ball State University. Not one plant survives from the Wheeler Collection, even though Ball State still has the money endowed to keep them going. We on this forum ARE the experts. And we can not keep a gene pool stable over the long haul.
It is absolutely critical that species be preserved in the wild. The gene frequencies change over time in captivity. Now I did do my duty, I provided the initial batch of seed pods to AnTec and they provided the lab skills, so AnTec was able to release about 300 or so flasks of besseae to the public in 1994-1995 which help meet the market demand so that today you can get blooming besseae for less than $50. Terry Root's first generation of besseae hit the market just before Antec, so there was a perfect storm of besseae availability, wich allowed the prices to drop from $300 to $25 for seedlings. Most of the besseae available today are 3rd and 4th generation from a founding stock of not much more than 60 individuals. Most are OZ stock, the remaiders are from mine and AnTec's stock. There are others, HP Norton, Hans Burkhart and a couple others, the each worked with only a handful of plants. The genetic diversity of the 10,000's of collected besseae plants is lost forever. The vast majority of those collected plants are dead.
So please, let's not justify our need to aquire with the false claim we are "preserving a gene pool", it just ain't true. Now when we mass produce seedlings from a sample captive population we do lower collecting preasure on the wild ones, which is good for ex situ preservation. But let us not confuse this activity with saving genetic diversity. Diversity can really only be preserved by large intact wild populations.
My 2 cents
Leo
 
I think the last paragraph of your post is the most important, Leo. By increasing the availability of any plant, we reduce the price, and hence the collection pressure. If it is cheaper to buy a flasked plant, most people will do so, no need to get them out of the jungle. There is no reason that jungle collected plants should be cheaper than flasked material.

With the release of Kovachi flasks in the US, hopefully we are a year or two away from almost eliminating collection pressure in Peru. Assuming the damn things establish... Europe probably has enough already, and the other big markets are flooded as well, as far as I know. When I say 'almost eliminate': There is a hard core group of people out there who absolutely must have a jungle collected plant. Those are the people that need to be rounded up and 're-educated'. The jungle is our gene pool. That is where the alba kovachii will be (assuming they haven't already been pulled), the yellow ones, etc... Not in the flasked population. When they are discovered, we should have a system to make it easy to get their progeny (not the sires) into flask and into distribution. Leave the parents in Peru.
 
Well, well. I really want to congratulate the participating members of the forum for the high academic quality of their comments. This is what we all want to read and comment, about the challenge of a wonderful new specie endangered in its natural habitad, just because of overcollecting. It is good to know that after 4 years of intense ilegal collecting the pressure could be reduced. In Lima for ex, there are very few orchid growers that could really flower PK in Lima conditions. I presume they already tryed and were not succesful, because tha price of an ilegal PK was around 100 soles in 2004, now nobody wants to buy it for 30 soles (less than US $ 10). It is not a specie than can adapt to Lima conditions. So the presure on wild population is down here. But the pressure to obtain the alba or other pink or butteryellow varieties is still high for plants going to foreign countries, specially trough the norther border...CITES Ecuador has identified the smuglers, but for some reason they are not acting...and nobody buys flasks here in Lima. There is no market for flask at all here in Lima.
Appaerently Inrena is willing to issue permits to at least two comercial growers in the market to collect and extend their genetic gene pool. What we know is that CJM has all plants in good conditions. Mr Moore has also divided his recently collected plants but they were blooming with no complications last December.
 
There are no legal mature plants or divisions in Lima. The two comercial growers can not sell divisions nor entire mature plants. Universities here in Lima have their own permits to handle parts of phrag plants for their research. All the rest of PKs plants are ilegal. Some hobbiests have tryed to grow here in Lima with a very poor rate of succes. Confiscated plants of INRENA came in 2004 to several universities acting as rescue centers...all plants died already. INRENA has decided if they confiscate plants in the future they will be relocate them near the habitat. I don`t know if this could work, but we have to wait to see the results. Perhpas the best to do is to give the confiscated plants to the growers showing a good rate of succes.
 
isaias m rolando said:
There are no legal mature plants or divisions in Lima. The two comercial growers can not sell divisions nor entire mature plants. Universities here in Lima have their own permits to handle parts of phrag plants for their research. All the rest of PKs plants are ilegal. Some hobbiests have tryed to grow here in Lima with a very poor rate of succes. Confiscated plants of INRENA came in 2004 to several universities acting as rescue centers...all plants died already. INRENA has decided if they confiscate plants in the future they will be relocate them near the habitat. I don`t know if this could work, but we have to wait to see the results. Perhpas the best to do is to give the confiscated plants to the growers showing a good rate of succes.

How much does a small legal seedling or flask cost in Lima if purchased from one of the two legal nurseries?
 
They are not selling flask to orchid hobbiests. As I said, there is no market for flask here. I beleive, they must report also to INRENA...don't know why?
 
kentuckiense said:
Are you referring to this quote from Lance?


If so, then the answer to your question is yes, it is absolutely positively necessary.

Yes, that was my question. Why is each genetic variant required?
 
I guess a better way to phrase my question would be why should each variant be collected? As was pointed out, if a species can be reproduced in numbers sufficient to relieve the demand than the wild population can be protected until they re-establish. That should be the responsibility of the authorities.
 
isaias m rolando said:
They are not selling flask to orchid hobbiests. As I said, there is no market for flask here. I beleive, they must report also to INRENA...don't know why?

Isaias, thank you for being honest. The reason they are not selling flasks is because they can make a higher profit by selling the flasks for export. It is not because no Peruvian wants to buy one.

I wonder why there is a black market?

They are not selling small legal plants to Peruvians in Lima either.(fact)

If you want to eliminate the black market you need to a least make the legal plants available for purchase by your own citizens. When someone in Lima wants a kovachii plant they have no choice but to purchase a wild collected plant. I know this is a real situation that exists.

You have said kovachii can't be grown by people in Lima. Isaias, that is just not true. Lima has a very nice climate and there is no reason kovachii can't be grown there. What is so magical about other countries growing conditions that kovachii should be exported to all other countries but not sold in it's own country or origin?

As long as there are no legal plants available for Peruvians to purchase every last wild kovachii is at risk of being collected for domestic sale.
You can't even consider "reintroduction" until you solve this major problem.
 
NYEric said:
I guess a better way to phrase my question would be why should each variant be collected? As was pointed out, if a species can be reproduced in numbers sufficient to relieve the demand than the wild population can be protected until they re-establish. That should be the responsibility of the authorities.

The answer is twofold. First I agree with you, taking the pressure of the wild population is the answer. There should not be talk about reintroduction. Protecting the wild population should be the only concern at this time. Making plans for reintroduction only gives an excuse to ignore the protection of the existing wild plants.

But if you are going to reintroduce plants you should put back the exact genetic material into the location it came from. For this reason you would need a sample of all genetically separate populations to you can put them back where they belong. If this is the goal then each of the populations in captivity need to be keep genetically separate from each other.

If you are collecting genetic material for horticulture uses it is desirable to have a sample of as many genetic populations as possible. You want as many different traits to select from to make your breeding choices from. Maybe the plants in one population have longer lasting flowers while the flowers are larger in another. You want both to use in your breeding program.

Ranting thoughts.......
Reintroduction is a sweet dream of human fantasy. It is only a prolongation of the inevitable. What is the point? Is it necessary to bring the dead to life again? At what specie do we draw a line? Reintroduction is becoming an excuse to not properly protect the environment.

Replanting of Mahogany trees in Peru has been a complete failure and after 20years of trying the Peruvian government closed it's tree nurseries. If it won't work for a specie that is worth $50,000 for a single tree why will it work for an orchid that is worth somewhat less?
 
gonewild said:
T
Replanting of Mahogany trees in Peru has been a complete failure and after 20years of trying the Peruvian government closed it's tree nurseries. If it won't work for a specie that is worth $50,000 for a single tree why will it work for an orchid that is worth somewhat less?
I know there had been some success with replanting of trees in the cloud forest regions. I believe that there has also been success in the reintroduction of Macaws in Peru. This may be a project for the local orchid club, maybe sponsored with conservation funds from a US local OS....I can't see Peru giving this a high priority.
 
Lets put it this way, for each ilegal plant in the market in Lima there are 100 ilegal plants out of our borders, is that clear? So the pressure on wild PK popúlation IS NOT IN LIMA. Like in the case of P. besseae it is always a great pressure through the northern border and the ilegal market: HABITAT-LIMA (COMERCIAL GROWER AND EXPORTER) FOREIGN COUNTRIES (MOSTLY ASIANS AND EUROPE).
You are right Ron,the country is not giving any priority to PK conservation. HAS TO BE A PRIVATE ISSUE...
 

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