P. emersonii culture: advice needed

[atlantis]

Hi every STalkers.

I´m very pleased to show you my small P. emersonii and, as some of you grow this species quite well, I´m looking for some help to improve my "skills" with this plant.

I received it from a friend in August-2012. After a few days the biggest growth rotted and the smallest one did the same a month later (The only growth that survived it´s marked with the red arrow).


After one and a half years this plant has grown until 5 "huge" cms, and has never stopped growing until now (veeeeery slowly).


My cultural conditions for this guy are:
- Temps: 32 ºC Max (summer) and 11-12 ºC min (winter). I prefer not to let the temperature drop below 10-11 ºC until it reaches a bigger size.
- Humidity: 40% - 65/70%
- Light: medium (semi shade)
- Water: I let it dry out between waterings in winter and I keep it wetter in summer
- Mix: It grows in a sponge rock based mix plus pine bark, charcoal and sponge.
- Fertilizer: I feed very lightly with 23-6-10 at less than 0,4 gr./L maybe twice or three a month and calcic nitrate+epsom salts once or twice a month (in spring and early summer). In fall I feed even less until winter, when I hardly do it (but I keep on feeding it since it grows even in cool weather).
I use tap water (very soft in my town).

Any special care for it? Any mistake in the culture?
It looks healthy to me and the newer leaves are bigger than the previous one, but I´d like you to tell me if I´m doing something wrong or not.
I know it´s almost impossible to get a flower from such a tiny emersonii for a newbie as I´m, but keeping it alive is a very exciting challenge as well.

Thanks in advance for reading (even more for answering)!

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Looks good....I'd just switch the fertilizer to a k-lite formula. Unfortunately, emersonii is just a slow growing plant, not at all easy to grow. That said, once blooming size, I have found it pretty easy to bloom. But then it dies......

 

[Rick]

I think they can be faster than most give them credit for.

Also mine bloomed and put on two new growths instead of dying.

The big break for me was switching to a low K feeding. Once all the new growths and roots kicked in this plant can handle quite a bit of watering, and will grow pretty fast. I still tend to under pot this species and include a fair amount of inorganic material (like large limestone gravel and sponge rock) to keep drainage real high.

When I fed at higher K rates, keeping it cool and low light seemed to work out better. But if you take the K out of the system, it doesn't have to fight so hard to pick up Ca and Mg, and will turn into a robust plant.

 

[Trithor]

Mixing calcium nitrate and Epsom salts will result in the Calcium and sulphate precipitating out as insoluble calcium sulphate (chalk, especially if the water pH is slightly high) unless they are dilute at the time of mixing and you will be left with magnesium and nitrate ions in solution. Calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate work better together with a separate application of Epsom salts for the benefit of the sulphate component.
Well done in keeping it alive after the rot problem!

 

[Rick]

Mixing calcium nitrate and Epsom salts will result in the Calcium and sulphate precipitating out as insoluble calcium sulphate (chalk, especially if the water pH is slightly high) unless they are dilute at the time of mixing

Dilute is the key. The solubility of gypsum (calcium sulfate) is up around 2000ppm. So unless you are trying to make a concentrated superstock (maybe for use in a Dosatron or other automated diluting device) you won't have a problem.

At the final feed rates we put on our plants, the solubility problems Gary brings up will not occur.

 

[Rick]

Your soft tap water is probably more than enough for what this plant needs as a wee seedling except lacking in a dab of N and P. (There should be enough K already).

You might skip 99% of the feeding you presently do and just add a pinch of bone meal (calcium phosphate) to your potting mix, and add enough calcium nitrate to your tap water to hit 2- 5ppm N with your regular watering.

 

[Trithor]

Dilute is the key. The solubility of gypsum (calcium sulfate) is up around 2000ppm. So unless you are trying to make a concentrated superstock (maybe for use in a Dosatron or other automated diluting device) you won't have a problem.

At the final feed rates we put on our plants, the solubility problems Gary brings up will not occur.

Agreed, but most of us dissolve the salts by adding them to a container and adding water. Net result is huge concentration surrounding the salts and the expected reaction of ions. Have you ever added a teaspoon of mag sulph and a teaspoon of cal nitrate to a container of water? Very quickly an opaque sludge develops which no amount of agitation will dissolve (unless the solution is acidified). However if the two are dissolved sepparately and diluted, I agree thy will stay in solution (not the most common result though)

 

[Rick]

Have you ever added a teaspoon of mag sulph and a teaspoon of cal nitrate to a container of water?

The container size is the key to dilution.

No, I've never added a teaspoon of each into a 8 ounce cup of water and not expected to get precipitation.

But adding 1/4 tsp/gallon of each is just fine (and still more concentrated than what I put on my plants these days). I've done that one a lot in the past.:wink:

My last iteration of calcium nitrate and mag sulfate use (before K lite) was 1/8 tsp each of old MSU, calnitrate, and anhydrous magsulfate into a gallon of RO water. No precip problems, but its nowhere near 2000ppm of CaSO4.

 

[atlantis]

I think they can be faster than most give them credit for.

Also mine bloomed and put on two new growths instead of dying.

The big break for me was switching to a low K feeding. Once all the new growths and roots kicked in this plant can handle quite a bit of watering, and will grow pretty fast. I still tend to under pot this species and include a fair amount of inorganic material (like large limestone gravel and sponge rock) to keep drainage real high.

When I fed at higher K rates, keeping it cool and low light seemed to work out better. But if you take the K out of the system, it doesn't have to fight so hard to pick up Ca and Mg, and will turn into a robust plant.

Your soft tap water is probably more than enough for what this plant needs as a wee seedling except lacking in a dab of N and P. (There should be enough K already).

You might skip 99% of the feeding you presently do and just add a pinch of bone meal (calcium phosphate) to your potting mix, and add enough calcium nitrate to your tap water to hit 2- 5ppm N with your regular watering.

Thank you very much for this useful information Rick.

I keep this plant in a bigger pot than I´d like to use, but it has the previous growth roots and they´re pretty big. I´m trying to keep those roots healthy, and that's why I use a coarse and quite inorganic mix for this. I feel more confident with very draining materials for this baby plants.

Mixing calcium nitrate and Epsom salts will result in the Calcium and sulphate precipitating out as insoluble calcium sulphate (chalk, especially if the water pH is slightly high) unless they are dilute at the time of mixing and you will be left with magnesium and nitrate ions in solution. Calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate work better together with a separate application of Epsom salts for the benefit of the sulphate component.
Well done in keeping it alive after the rot problem!

Agreed, but most of us dissolve the salts by adding them to a container and adding water. Net result is huge concentration surrounding the salts and the expected reaction of ions. Have you ever added a teaspoon of mag sulph and a teaspoon of cal nitrate to a container of water? Very quickly an opaque sludge develops which no amount of agitation will dissolve (unless the solution is acidified). However if the two are dissolved sepparately and diluted, I agree thy will stay in solution (not the most common result though)

Trithor: it must be my tap water pH, but I´ve never had that precipitate when mixing Calcic Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate. I don´t storage the solution, so I only mix it when I´m about to use it. Moreover, I use both salts extremely diluted (maybe this fact makes more difficult that precipitation between them??)
However, I find interesting your recommendation about using them separated. I´m preparing a "modified K-lite" for this season so it´s very good to get new ideas before starting the project. If I find the way to add both components separatedly in my fert. regime I´ll do it. Thank you very much

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

In the past few months I've switched to really low K-lite fertilizer concentrations, given with every watering (every other day) in my light garden, where emersonii is. While most plants have responded well, with increased root growth and even top growth, emersonii has not improved at all...in fact, a seedling has done decidedly worse.

 

[labskaus]

In addition to all the good advice already given, I would suggest to treat the plant with an akarizide. Some of the leaf issues on the older growth look as if they might be caused by mite or insect damage.

 

[NYEric]

In the past few months I've switched to really low K-lite fertilizer concentrations, given with every watering (every other day) in my light garden, where emersonii is. While most plants have responded well, with increased root growth and even top growth, emersonii has not improved at all...in fact, a seedling has done decidedly worse.

Um, are you really watering it every other day?!

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Under lights. The humidity is low, and I have fans blowing, so most pots dry out within 2 days.

 

[Rick]

Um, are you really watering it every other day?!

That's probably about how often mine gets watered, but the mix is real open and mostly inert.

Humidity is >70%.

 

[Rick]

In the past few months I've switched to really low K-lite fertilizer concentrations, given with every watering (every other day) in my light garden, where emersonii is. While most plants have responded well, with increased root growth and even top growth, emersonii has not improved at all...in fact, a seedling has done decidedly worse.

Well sometimes you just can't beat out the past history of the plant. I recieved a tiny virtually rootless 8 year old vietnamense seedling to try as a last ditch attempt to save it. Although it got a new leaf and started a root it ultimatley perished.

On the other hand, I got a divison of an emersonii from Leo S. this past summer (that did have roots) and it's moving along quite nicely.:wink:

One of these days I try to get a compot of emersonii to get the statistical significance up on the method. But as you've noticed most of your plants are responding well so there's always hope with the tuffy.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Atlatis - your conditions sound near ideal. Keep up the good work. I currently have a collection of about 10 different clones of emersonii, and 7 of them are originally collected plants that I picked up 25 or more years ago. I have only lost a couple in all that years I've grown them. I'm lucky if one blooms in any given year. They are good, tough plants, able to survive all my mistakes, but they tend to be very slow growers. There is no way to 'push' them with good results. Some individuals grow faster than others. My fastest grower blooms every 3 or 4 years. So you are doing great. Since I switched to K-Lite I have seen a little improvement, but nothing dramatic. But then again, they naturally move slow in my conditions. It may be true that there are ways to get faster growth, I just don't know what the tricks would be. The fastest growers I have are from seed raised plants. Selection for better growers from seed crosses may be the way to get faster emersonii in the future.

 

[tomkalina]

Leo,

Are you adding the K-Lite to Chicago water or RO water?

Thanks,

 

[atlantis]

Atlatis - your conditions sound near ideal. Keep up the good work. I currently have a collection of about 10 different clones of emersonii, and 7 of them are originally collected plants that I picked up 25 or more years ago. I have only lost a couple in all that years I've grown them. I'm lucky if one blooms in any given year. They are good, tough plants, able to survive all my mistakes, but they tend to be very slow growers. There is no way to 'push' them with good results. Some individuals grow faster than others. My fastest grower blooms every 3 or 4 years. So you are doing great. Since I switched to K-Lite I have seen a little improvement, but nothing dramatic. But then again, they naturally move slow in my conditions. It may be true that there are ways to get faster growth, I just don't know what the tricks would be. The fastest growers I have are from seed raised plants. Selection for better growers from seed crosses may be the way to get faster emersonii in the future.

Leo: I appreciate your words a lot. I agree with you when you say that the best way to get faster plants is selection (and specially in emersonii and some other awful grower as adductum).
Most of the plants I get from european vendors have not even a clonal name so it´s impossible to find out the source where those plants come from. I´m pretty sure that, as Rick said before, many of the plants we buy have been under different growing conditions that we have to correct (or to adjust to our conditions at least) after the purchase.
Reading your answers (from you all) encourages me to continue trying to do my best with this small plant.
Thank you very much.

 

[wonderlen3000]

It loves warmth and high humidity, and grow at geological time rate (kidding). If you manage to bloom it, i would def cut off the flower bud, as its very notorious for blooming and dying.

 

[atlantis]

It loves warmth and high humidity

It must be true because it has been growing "faster" (well, you know what I mean... ¬¬') in summer and early fall than in winter.
I try not to let the leaves stay wet because I´m aware of the rot.

If you manage to bloom it, i would def cut off the flower bud, as its very notorious for blooming and dying.

If I manage to bloom it as a single growth plant I´ll probably let it do it and then I´ll prepare a nice funeral. I can´t think about restarting all the process again with the same plant. What a torture!

Thanks for your culture recommendations.