Most expensive orchid I’ve bought- will it be a good breeding parent??

[Ndove]

Hi all!

I do have a rather varied collection of orchids that I like but I have a real “thing” for Phalaenopsis. I want to try my hand at breeding on a small “boutique” scale for now and see where that leads me.

Looking to buy some really great plants to begin with, I stumbled on Peter Lin’s Big Leaf Orchids website. I found the most stunning flower I’ve ever seen and I just had to have it. After a few emails asking him about the cross, whom already has its sister plants awarded in the AOS, I purchased it. It arrived in perfect shape and was packaged great. I’m super happy with it and I hope it turns out to be a great breeder. I hope to also get it awarded someday..

Anyway. If anyone would like to chime in on what they think of this flower and the cross and its potential please let’s discuss! I love picking people’s brains!

Will attach some photos. Beautiful thick, shiny round leaves on this thing!

 

[big923cattleya]

In my opinion, gathered from almost 50 years of orchid growing, any good breeder of orchids has a plan in place. A list of goals or desires. Good breeders tend not to jump into making a cross without a good idea of the outcome.
A plan might be to breed for temperature tolerance, rounder flowers, fragrant flowers, spotted flowers etc. A good hybridizer has this all planned before they start.
They can get a good idea which traits of particular plants are dominant, which are recessive.
Since I have been an AOS judge, I have on occasion have seen new hybrids come to the judging table and I wonder, why make this cross? I mention that because the parents of this hybrid are far superior to their progeny. Crosses should be made to improve things, not to take a step back. To state it simply, most hybridizers breed to produce offspring that are superior to the parents. Years ago we used to say, “because they were in bloom at the same time!”
In my humble opinion, it takes years to acquire the knowledge and quality stud plants before you can produce quality
Hybrids.
Unfortunately, aside from Cattleyas, you have picked a group of orchids that have been hybridized like crazy!!
Good luck!

 

[Ndove]

In my opinion, gathered from almost 50 years of orchid growing, any good breeder of orchids has a plan in place. A list of goals or desires. Good breeders tend not to jump into making a cross without a good idea of the outcome.
A plan might be to breed for temperature tolerance, rounder flowers, fragrant flowers, spotted flowers etc. A good hybridizer has this all planned before they start.
They can get a good idea which traits of particular plants are dominant, which are recessive.
Since I have been an AOS judge, I have on occasion have seen new hybrids come to the judging table and I wonder, why make this cross? I mention that because the parents of this hybrid are far superior to their progeny. Crosses should be made to improve things, not to take a step back. To state it simply, most hybridizers breed to produce offspring that are superior to the parents. Years ago we used to say, “because they were in bloom at the same time!”
In my humble opinion, it takes years to acquire the knowledge and quality stud plants before you can produce quality
Hybrids.
Unfortunately, aside from Cattleyas, you have picked a group of orchids that have been hybridized like crazy!!
Good luck!

Thank you. Your well written reply is appreciated!

Although new to orchids, I am not new to breeding and genetics by any means. I was a show dog breeder and exhibitor for well over the past decade now.. also was invited to be a judge but declined due to personal reasons.

I do agree with you about having a plan in place, this is of utmost importance when breeding anything whether it be flowers or dogs. So I understand that. I’m here to learn and pick people’s brains who are more knowledgeable than I.

When I say I plan on doing breeding, not in the immediate future. My program is still in the infancy /planning stages, if you will.
Just thought I’d make a post to get people’s thoughts since I know Peter Lin’s program is well regarded.

 

[big923cattleya]

Glad to be of some help.
But I gather that perhaps one of the first things you might want to consider is to contact the breeders themselves. They may or may not be receptive. I have no idea as to how many of these people hang out here.

Then perhaps, and I am sure that you have already thought of this is the overall scope
Of your operation. Do you want to produce a few crosses a year or dozens?
Not only has Peter Lin’s program been successful but dozens of others have been successful too?
Would you consider working on a different group of orchids then the most popular?

 

[Guldal]

The Genetic Lottery works in mysterious ways!

 

[Happypaphy7]

The Genetic Lottery works in mysterious ways!

So true!
Especially a complex hybrid like this particular example mentioned in this thread.
Just a quick look at some of the other plants from the same grex is a big purprise.
There's even a yellow flower, bronze, purple...with or without various markings on the flowers.
This is the fun part of the novelty breeding. One of the best part is that these plants tend to grow and start to bloom in just short few years from seeds.

 

[Ozpaph]

Its a beautiful flower, but without an equally outstanding mate you could be 'wasting' 5 years of your life. Also you need to sort out who will do the flasking for you BEFORE you start hybridising - that can be very difficult.

 

[Paph Paradise]

Is this plant a mericlone or a kieki? Most breeders prefer not to use mericlones as there can be minor mutations in the cloning process that make the plant slightly different from the original. If it is a stem prop or keiki the mutations are less likely.

Look in Orchid Wiz to see if this plant has made any hybrids, and if any parallel breeding has been successful. Learn from what other breeders have done with similar hybrids so you can understand how this plant might work as a parent.

Dave

 

[tnyr5]

Stem prop, according to Peter's website. View attachment 41454

 

[Ross]

Sounds like you are doing your due diligence. One question that I have is have you experience in deflasking orchids? When I was just starting to form an idea of what I wanted to breed, I bought flasks of orchids that might be of use in breeding, allowing me to:
1. Learn how successfully grow out of flask.
2. Learn about bloom variation in different types of crosses.
3. Hopefully acquire potential breeding plants by picking the best from the flask.

 

[Ndove]

Sounds like you are doing your due diligence. One question that I have is have you experience in deflasking orchids? When I was just starting to form an idea of what I wanted to breed, I bought flasks of orchids that might be of use in breeding, allowing me to:
1. Learn how successfully grow out of flask.
2. Learn about bloom variation in different types of crosses.
3. Hopefully acquire potential breeding plants by picking the best from the flask.

Thank you! I’ve been researching how to do the deflasking. My best friend is actually a scientist/microbiologist at a state lab and she has plenty of experience to teach me things, even tho she works with animal and human specimens mostly, I’m sure most of the lab knowledge is similar.

Like I said in an earlier post I was a dog breeder for over a decade and I was extremely picky about my genetics in my breeding program and I will be as equally picky about my orchids! I have a lot to learn about them though. Thank u for your kind reply!

 

[Ndove]

Glad to be of some help.
But I gather that perhaps one of the first things you might want to consider is to contact the breeders themselves. They may or may not be receptive. I have no idea as to how many of these people hang out here.

Then perhaps, and I am sure that you have already thought of this is the overall scope
Of your operation. Do you want to produce a few crosses a year or dozens?
Not only has Peter Lin’s program been successful but dozens of others have been successful too?
Would you consider working on a different group of orchids then the most popular?

Yes I’m definitely looking into other programs as well… it seems as though there aren’t many Phal breeders online that I’ve seen that have extensive websites that I can do “research” on. I do absolutely love Fred Clarkes website and the amount of time to explain why he does certain crosses. That’s the kind of detail I enjoy reading about! I have bought some cattleya hybrids and a few Clowesetum and Catasetum hybrids from Fred that haven’t bloomed yet. My Cattleya is in sheath right now! Can’t wait to show Fred, as it’s a new hybrid.

 

[southernbelle]

Yes I’m definitely looking into other programs as well… it seems as though there aren’t many Phal breeders online that I’ve seen that have extensive websites that I can do “research” on. I do absolutely love Fred Clarkes website and the amount of time to explain why he does certain crosses. That’s the kind of detail I enjoy reading about! I have bought some cattleya hybrids and a few Clowesetum and Catasetum hybrids from Fred that haven’t bloomed yet. My Cattleya is in sheath right now! Can’t wait to show Fred, as it’s a new hybrid.

One thing to consider anytime you acquire something that is more valuable, but many people do it anytime they bring a new plant into their collection. That is to test the plant for viruses. Phals are notorious for being virused. Some of the huge international producers cut into the seed pod rather than letting it open naturally to gather the seeds, to speed up the process. It’s called wet harvesting, and that transmits virus from the mother plant to the seeds. I know your plant is a keiki, but the original plant it came from could be virused, which would mean it is. I hope you’ve tested this one because it is a valuable plant. And I’m sure Peter would stand behind it, if it were virused as long as you’ve only received it very recently. Otherwise, you could’ve contaminated it with virus from other plants in your collection that are virused. If you are not familiar, Agdia sells kits that test for the two most common Orchid viruses ORSV and CymV that are for home use.

 

[Jmoney]

I agree completely. I only have a few phals and was shocked at how many test positive (mostly for ORSV), all without symptoms. I know this Peter Lin (the phal grower) will NOT take plants back if virused. That is a fact, based on my personal experience. He is by no means the only phal vendor who has that policy. Kind of bush league in my book, when stem props run 50-60 to 125 and up. But my fault for not asking ahead of time...I do now. The phal community in general I find doesn't seem to care much about virus. (Whether any particular hobbyist should is a personal choice in my opinion.)

 

[alecStewart1]

I'll throw in my 2 cents, even though I've never cross breed anything before. We can look at Vanda crosses to get a good idea of how to breed.

Say I have an Neo. falcata 'Shutennou' 朱天王 (pink flowers) and a Vanda merrillii var. rotorii (mahogany flowers). Why would I breed a Neo with a warm growing Vanda? 3 reasons:

1. Mixing a Neo in will create a more hardy plant
2. The offspring has a chance to be smaller
3. There's the possibility of a unique flower, in color, shape and fragance

This is why Vandachostylis Lou Sneary is such a popular hybrid. It's smaller than most Vandas, there's a lot of variable flower colors and even shapes, and it has a nice fragrance. However the more you start to mix in other species and/or hybrids into something like Vandachostylis Lou Sneary, the more you start to play with the genetic roulette wheel.

But if we talk about more collector's or connoisseur plants, the more we have to worry about the genetic roulette wheel.

Say we have one of the lovely purple Vanda's from Motes, say a Vanda Motes Interstellar that might run you ~200 USD. It's fragrant, more compcat, and has great purple flowers. It's also already a hybrid. Then let's say we find a neat little Korean variety Neo. There's Honggwang, which is a bean leaf variety with deep magenta "upturned" flowers and could run you up to almost 400 USD, not including international shipping. So now you're in ~600 USD. Which are you going to do?

1. Cross breed these two and hope for a hybrid that has all of the traits you want, and the genetic roulette wheel doesn't screw you over, or
2. Grow these plants like normal and sell off any divisions?

Sure, you can do number 1 if you really want, but growing orchids from seeds (if you get any viable seed pods in the first place) to maturity to where they can flower is no small feat, and you're already in ~600 USD and your partner/spouse and/or your immediate family is likely angry with you. Do you cross your fingers and hope to make something even more noteworthy than existing warm Vanda and Neo hybrids? Or do you just appreciate the nice plants you bought and sell off divisions to maybe make some money back?

If I had money to blow, maybe I'd do number 1. That's kind of the mindset of a lot of people who cross breed.