Hybrid "evolution" question

[Barbara]

Indeed. My sister has a reaction (icky red leisions) when she comes in contact with certain fabric softeners. (Do these contain similar compounds?)
Her symptoms get worse if she become agitated (overheated).
She takes benedryl to stop this. Don't know if I'm being any use here.
Barb.

 

[gonewild]

Prickley is a really good way to describe it.
Okay, that's very interesting.

BTW, the spot where the nickel patch was was REALLY itchy when removed, but not at all where the besseae patch was.

I felt it coming on a bit tonight. Then I vacuumed. Then I washed my face off, and it stopped feeling like it was coming on. I think that's beginning to be key, my washing my face when I feel it coming on, or if I sweat at all.

Thanks Lance. You can bet I'll be doing some more searches about nickel sensitivity tomorrow!

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/14349.htm
Change your diet and keep your besseae!

 

[Heather]

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/14349.htm
Change your diet and keep your besseae!

I'm glad they seem to think that my All Clad pots aren't a big problem (honestly, I am cooking so much less now than I was prior to April) but chocolate and nuts! Ouch! I eat a LOT of nuts. Probably my snack of choice (that and cracked green Greek olives).

Telling me I was lactose intolerant would be about the only thing worse I can think of (apart from Phrag. besseae allergies! lol!) I am such a cheese whore.

 

[gonewild]

BTW, the spot where the nickel patch was was REALLY itchy when removed, but not at all where the besseae patch was.

If besseae does grow on serpentine soils they may indeed have high natural levels of nickel. Serpentine soils are known to be high in nickel and it stands to reason that plants growing on them may also be slightly higher in nickel content. That could be why besseae shows a slight reaction.

Then again some indigenous people would tell you besseae gives you a red rash because it has a red flower and so do you. (red hair?)

 

[Heather]

If besseae does grow on serpentine soils they may indeed have high natural levels of nickel. Serpentine soils are known to be high in nickel and it stands to reason that plants growing on them may also be slightly higher in nickel content. That could be why besseae shows a slight reaction.

Then again some indigenous people would tell you besseae gives you a red rash because it has a red flower and so do you. (red hair?)

What about limestone?

They also tested me on my Sander's Pride (because it was in bloom, and was my only multi I could sacrifice at the time). Both parents, sanderianum and stonei are found growing on limestone. I tested very slightly positive on the Sanders Pride (not enough for him to really worry about, about half as much a reaction as the besseae, which was, I think about half as severe as the nickel.) I also tested rothschildianum - just the leaf. It is not calcicolous. I was negative to the roth. THANK GOD!!!!

Any correlation? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?

 

[Heather]

Indeed. My sister has a reaction (icky red leisions) when she comes in contact with certain fabric softeners. (Do these contain similar compounds?)
Her symptoms get worse if she become agitated (overheated).
She takes benedryl to stop this. Don't know if I'm being any use here.
Barb.

Thanks Barb!
Benadryl makes mine worse, as do over the counter and prescribed cortizone cremes (I tested negative for an allergy to them though. Go figure!)

 

[Rick]

Does besseae naturally occur growing on serpentine soils? I seem to remember reading that at some time, but maybe it was a Paph species or something.

No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides. The metals are there because at high pH's they are insoluable, and don't wash out.

 

[gonewild]

What about limestone?

They also tested me on my Sander's Pride (because it was in bloom, and was my only multi I could sacrifice at the time). Both parents, sanderianum and stonei are found growing on limestone. I tested very slightly positive on the Sanders Pride (not enough for him to really worry about, about half as much a reaction as the besseae, which was, I think about half as severe as the nickel.) I also tested rothschildianum - just the leaf. It is not calcicolous. I was negative to the roth. THANK GOD!!!!

Any correlation? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?

I'm going to say..... that plants evolving in limestone soils will have a naturally lower nickel content than those from serpentine soils.

 

[Heather]

No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides.

So, might that backup my limestone theory? Are calcicolous areas high in nickel?

Again, I tested negative to any rothschildianum allergens but positive to stonei, sanderianum, and besseae.

Oh, they tested me on ProTekt too, thinking I might have a silicate allergy. No dice.

 

[gonewild]

No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides.

Humm.. then Heather testing negative to rothschildianum may negate this part of the theory. The good part is that would point toward besseae being innocent.

 

[Rick]

I can't imagine that metals sequestered in plant leaves could even come out of the leaves to cause a reaction. You'd have to break the cell walls (porbably by eating them) to get metals out of the leaves.

Some of the North American cyps have irritating hairs that cause rashes on contact. It could be that some phrags have a similar thing.

This nickel issue is intriguing. I do allot of tox work with nickel and water fleas. Heather have you checked for reaction to zinc? It has some similar toxicological properties to nickel, and allot more common in the environment.

 

[gonewild]

I can't imagine that metals sequestered in plant leaves could even come out of the leaves to cause a reaction. You'd have to break the cell walls (porbably by eating them) to get metals out of the leaves.

I agree, but then Heather has suddenly had reactions to besseae and nickel at the same time? If she is allergic to one specie and not another it must be something within the plants composition? Or not the plant at all?

 

[VAAlbert]

I am curious about what traits Phrag. besseae and other micropetalum are dominant in their hybrids. Clearly, there tends to be a stoloniferous growth habit in plants such as Hanne Popow, but not plants such as St. Ouen. The scent from schlimii passes on to Hanne Popow, but not generally St. Ouen, or Barbara LeAnn, but Beverly Fischer has the schlimii scent.

I don't know much about the genetics of scent (PVs, = plant volatiles), in terms of dominance/recessiveness, but quite a bit is known about how scent-related genes have evolved. As with many other aspects of plant phenotypes, scents have often evolved through gene duplications and then diversification of gene function thereafter. Apparently, convergent evolution of the same scents can occur time and again. Here is a relevant abstract from the journal Science:

Science. 2006 Feb 10;311(5762):808-11.

Biosynthesis of plant volatiles: nature's diversity and ingenuity.

* Pichersky E,
* Noel JP,
* Dudareva N.

Department of Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology, University of Michigan, 830 North University Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA. [email protected]

Plant volatiles (PVs) are lipophilic molecules with high vapor pressure that serve various ecological roles. The synthesis of PVs involves the removal of hydrophilic moieties and oxidation/hydroxylation, reduction, methylation, and acylation reactions. Some PV biosynthetic enzymes produce multiple products from a single substrate or act on multiple substrates. Genes for PV biosynthesis evolve by duplication of genes that direct other aspects of plant metabolism; these duplicated genes then diverge from each other over time. Changes in the preferred substrate or resultant product of PV enzymes may occur through minimal changes of critical residues. Convergent evolution is often responsible for the ability of distally related species to synthesize the same volatile.

 

[NYEric]

Wow am I really that predictable? You have my address. :rollhappy:

 

[NYEric]

OK. Here's the solution. Stop using MSU fertilizer, zinc and nickel are very volatile, I know somebody who used to live in the former zinc building in NYC and the smell was ridiculous. Move your plants off the chromed metal shelving. Stop getting so worked up over dealing w/ "the ex". [It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.] Flush the prime agra w/ distilled water every week. If these dont work, well you have my address I'll make you a deal on the besseaes! ity:

 

[Heather]

Hrm, okay so our limestone theory seems to have gone out the window, huh? Darn.

Rick, I'm not sure they tested for Zinc, but if they did, I didn't come back positive for it.

Regarding giving up MSU and removing the shelving. Honestly, I'm not ready to give up anything yet. I'm going to do some patch testing on my self of the fertilizer and the Prime Agra (wish I'd hear back from Ray about the latter), and more of the plants. If I simply multiple things, I won't know what variable might actually be causing or not causing the symptoms.

 

[likespaphs]

...Telling me I was lactose intolerant would be about the only thing worse I can think of ...

you're lactose intolerant

 

[Heather]

you're lactose intolerant

My, aren't you helpful today!

 

[gonewild]

Hrm, okay so our limestone theory seems to have gone out the window, huh? Darn.

The serpentine/limestone soil part does not seem to fly. But that does not mean that besseae is not high in nickel for some reason. Your allergic reaction may be from a cumulative contact with multiple sources. One source of contact may be what puts you over the edge and you present a rash. Perhaps just eliminating one of the sources will solve the problem and perhaps you can choose what to eliminate. And maybe your reaction to besseae has nothing to do with nickel at all.

When you have a rash after working with your orchids do you by any chance always finish your session with besseae? And do you always sit down and eat nuts and chocolate as a reward for your completed chores? oke:

Another off the wall thought for the nickel source.... Is there a possibility you are allergic to something your lights are emitting? Are your besseae under different lights than the multiflorals?
Since you are fair skinned maybe you are allergic to the artificial light source?

 

[Heather]

When you have a rash after working with your orchids do you by any chance always finish your session with besseae? And do you always sit down and eat nuts and chocolate as a reward for your completed chores? oke:

Another off the wall thought for the nickel source.... Is there a possibility you are allergic to something your lights are emitting? Are your besseae under different lights than the multiflorals?
Since you are fair skinned maybe you are allergic to the artificial light source?

Do I always finish with the Phrags? Nope, sometimes I do the Phrags and the Paphs on different days even. No rhyme or reason to it. Last week I don't think I did the Phrags that Wednesday, the afternoon/evening of which I broke out.

Don't have a habit of eating chocolate, nuts, or salmon as a reward for my hard work.

I wondered about the lights also. I have three types, all in the same growing area. The phrags have compact fluorescents, the middle Paph area has a 400W Metal Halide Lamp and the outer edge areas have 160W mercury vapor wonderlites. But all the lights are in the same room.