Help for Paph. sangii

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katzenhai2

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Location
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Hello,

this Paph. sangii has been brought to me by a friend. It has hardly any roots left, just enough to survive. It is producing two new shoots.
20240411_165240_b.jpg

20240411_165138_b.jpg

It is currently in rockwool and shaded (2000 Lux) at 75%-80% rH with 23°C / 73°F. Watering every two days with Peters 10-52-10 (0.5g/L -> 410 µS & 5.8 pH) to promote root growth. Is this a good idea?

Or would it be better to give 20-20-20? The plant has probably already decided to put all its energy into new shoots instead of roots to save the current shoot. Perhaps I should rather adapt to this and support it e.g. with an additional urea foliar fertilization?

Does anyone have any other suggestions or ideas so that I can do something good for the plant? Am I fertilizing too much or too often? Are there any other supportive measures?

Thank you.
 
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Establish wild collected sangii is very tricky. Fingers crossed that you will make it!
So far your treatment sounds well. I would not only use the plantstarter, but change with the 20-20-20. Some swear by plant strengtheners, like algae product. They content also often vitamins and hormons. But i have no expirience.
Important is to clean the plant, especially the stem and roots from rotted material and dead parts to prevent rotting. Also a treatment with fungicide and insecticide make sense.
Good luck!
 
[...]
So far your treatment sounds well. I would not only use the plantstarter, but change with the 20-20-20. Some swear by plant strengtheners, like algae product. They content also often vitamins and hormons. But i have no expirience.
[...]
Thank you. I have now prepared new rockwool and soaked it in 10-52-10, adjusted the pH to 5.7 - I have read that it likes it more acidic? I also added Previcur (fungicide) to the soaking water.

Apart from that, there are slightly brownish spots on the leaves, some of which look damp (Erwinia?) but they are not getting larger at an accelerated rate. I have bought 'dagon blood' and will try it out in places. I can see that there are not enough roots for the remaining leaves. Overall, however the 'decay' seems to be in slow motion - I have experienced this more quickly with other plants. But let's see.

The new shoots, especially the green one at the front, are growing rapidly. That at least gives hope. I can already see the first 'normal' leaf coming out. But roots are still missing.

I might also try alternating with urea foliar fertilization. Let's see if and what effect it has. I'm just afraid of doing 'too much'.
 
Update 2024-04-20 (9th day)
20240420_015345.jpg

Update 2024-04-23 (13th day)
20240424_002718.jpg
20240423_233304.jpg

I now water with Peters 20-20-20+Ca+Mg, pH of 5.8 and EC of 270 µS (to preserve the roots). Added urea as supplement. Also foliar spray once a week. The micronutrients are reduced due to underdosing the fertilizer to reach only 270 µS.

The plant itself still looks okay. The lowest leaf is wilting slowly. The brown wet spots on the old leaves have not gotten any bigger. I rubbed them alternately with charcoal, cinnamon and lime. I had also limed the rockwool a little but then the leaves started to shrivel so I quickly moved it to new rockwool (read it like it more acidic - but most probably the roots were not adapted to the different pH). That was a week ago and has since stabilized.
 
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Always water to the conditions and media, don't use rules. You typically get the best root growth with Paphs by watering less, and keeping a more stable moisture level. I do this by using an open bark mix and a moss on top. The top dressing prevents air from drying the mix so fast and hence frequent watering.

On fungicides, they are nasty things. Personally I avoid them. If you do rely one them, your conditions are not right. If you really must use something and want something non-toxic, use Cinnamon. It smells great, and is quite effective.
 
Update 2024-04-20 (9th day)
View attachment 46976

Update 2024-04-23 (13th day)
View attachment 46977
View attachment 46975

I now water with Peters 20-20-20+Ca+Mg, pH of 5.8 and EC of 270 µS (to preserve the roots). Added urea as supplement. Also foliar spray once a week. The micronutrients are reduced due to underdosing the fertilizer to reach only 270 µS.

The plant itself still looks okay. The lowest leaf is wilting slowly. The brown wet spots on the old leaves have not gotten any bigger. I rubbed them alternately with charcoal, cinnamon and lime. I had also limed the rockwool a little but then the leaves started to shrivel so I quickly moved it to new rockwool (read it like it more acidic - but most probably the roots were not adapted to the different pH). That was a week ago and has since stabilized.
I think plant looks good. About erwinia, if you keep pH at 5,8, it is optimal, grodan rockwool is the best choice. Erwinia can t hurt the plant below 6,0. You can use plastic bag, too, like this.IMG_20240424_072807.jpg
 
I grow mine in Hausermann’s mix with extra sphagnum and extra perlite.

I would treat yours with First Ray’s magical KelPak to get roots going and would wrap that base in good damp sphagnum so the new growths’ roots would never dry out.
 
[...]
On fungicides, they are nasty things. Personally I avoid them. If you do rely one them, your conditions are not right. If you really must use something and want something non-toxic, use Cinnamon. It smells great, and is quite effective.
I never use fungicides in my culture, I have never had any need for them. Have only used the fungicide on the rockwool as it was generally recommended to me for first-use preparation.

You can use plastic bag, too, like this.
The plant stands in a glass vase with a lid that is open a crack. In my experience fungal diseases and insect pests can occur if the container is completely closed but never occur when the lid is a little bit opened. On the other hand with 100% rH roots grow like crazy... but it's a bit too delicate imho with this candidate. Looks like you also have such plants to care for.

I would treat yours with First Ray’s magical KelPak to get roots going and would wrap that base in good damp sphagnum so the new growths’ roots would never dry out.
Have already looked around but Kelpak is not available in Germany. Theres a huge amount of algae powder and algae fertilizer. I am confused as to which product is suitable - the one with the algae "Ascophyllum nodosum"? They use that in Maxicrop which of course isn't available here - and in what dosage... 😵‍💫
 
Yes, recently i got few rootless plant....most problems with that are dehydration, reutilization and infections, last one is frequently phytium, phytophtora and erwinia. Many of fungicides are ineffective on these fungis, but Previcur works well.If you can controll pH, Erwinia wont be problem. Erwinia (Pectobacterium cypripedii) can go through the cell wall with pectase enzyme, it can degradate the ca pectate chains. These chains connect the cellulose fibrillums and give the stability of the wall. That is why ca dificiency leads to bacterial rot. Pectase activity is optimal between 6,5 and 7,2, decreases below 6,5 and becomes inactive below 6,0.
 
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Yes, recently i got few rootless plant....most problems with that are dehydration, reutilization and infections, last one is frequently phytium, phytophtora and erwinia. Many of fungicides are ineffective on these fungis, but Previcur works well.If you can controll pH, Erwinia wont be problem. Erwinia (Pectobacterium cypripedii) can go through the cell wall with pectase enzyme, it can degradate the ca pectate chains. These chains connect the cellulose fibrillums and give the stability of the wall. That is why ca dificiency leads to bacterial rot. Pectase activity is optimal between 6,5 and 7,2, decreases below 6,5 and becomes inactive below 6,0.
This is very helpful! I've been struggling with erwinia. Plants growing great and suddenly it appears and death. Been trying everything with no real success.

Tested my pH and saw it was around 7.1 after adding fertilizer. Now waiting to get nitric acid to bring down the pH. It's a little hard to get, probably due to its explosive tendencies when mixed with other stuff.

Curious, when using nitric acid to lower the pH, do you need to reduce your normal fertilizer rate to avoid excessive nitrogen?
 
This is very helpful! I've been struggling with erwinia. Plants growing great and suddenly it appears and death. Been trying everything with no real success.

Tested my pH and saw it was around 7.1 after adding fertilizer. Now waiting to get nitric acid to bring down the pH. It's a little hard to get, probably due to its explosive tendencies when mixed with other stuff.

Curious, when using nitric acid to lower the pH, do you need to reduce your normal fertilizer rate to avoid excessive nitrogen?
HCl works well for acidifing. Chlorine is not problem at all, it is an essential macroelement, and won t hurt the plant. We always mess it with free chlorine derivate/ or elemental chlorine, yes last one is a very agressive poison, indeed...
 
Ipowder and algae fertilizer. I am confused as to which product is suitable - the one with the algae "Ascophyllum nodosum"? They use that in Maxicrop which of course isn't available here - and in what dosage... 😵‍💫

Have already looked around but Kelpak is not available in Germany. Theres a huge amount of algae powder and algae fertilizer. I am confused as to which product is suitable - the one with the algae "Ascophyllum nodosum"? They use that in Maxicrop which of course isn't available here - and in what dosage...
You can buy Kelpak from Besgrow in the netherlands
 
Looking good! If it will flower for you one day i am pretty sure you will see a nice javanicum btw.
You mean I was taken for a ride? 😢
What speaks against a P. sangii for you? The leaf pattern is the same on both.
 
It isn't for sure ... but the patterns on the leaves look a lot like P. javanicum.
I have seen many pics on the net from P. sangii and the leave patterns have a broader range, some look exactly like my plant above. 🤷‍♂️

One indication for a P. javanicum seems to be the leave before the bud comes out (I don't know how they call it in english). For javanicum it seems shorter and more green, example:
Paphiopedilum_javanicum_%28Reinw._ex_Lindl.%29_Pfitzer%2C_Jahrb._Wiss._Bot._19_165_%281888%29_%2849879271886%29.jpg


For P. sangii it looks more dark and more pointed:
img-7448_orig.jpg

sangii2013.jpg


My plant above have a bud thats darker and more pointed but its stuck in the leaves (of course because of the root issue):
20240411_165217.jpg

So hopefully its an indication for a P. sangii. 🙏
 
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Yes both javanicum and sangii have a wide range of leave pattern. But i havent ever seen a sangii with such thin stripes as pattern like your plant have it. But some javanicum types have it. I am pretty sure, but of course perhaps i am wrong in the end. The flower will show us the truth. ;)
Another reason to be javanicum is that it established easy 😆
 

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