First Flowering vs 2nd, 3rd and so on...

[garysan]

I've read a few posts in my time on here where people suggest that this particular bloom is deformed or has a slightly wonky pouch, naff colour, etc. but excuse it away as being the first bloom and no doubt the 2nd and so on will be better.

Just trying to understand; are they referring to the very first bloom the plant ever puts out with the 2nd, 3rd, etc. that sequentially opens on the same inflorescence will be/should be better OR the first years' flowering: i.e. all the flowers on that first inflorescence are going to be/likely be inferior?

 

[Kostas]

The reference is to the first year of flowering vs the second, etc, not the first flower of an inflorescence vs the second. Most plant groups dont put out the best or even functional flowers on their first year of flowering and need a few years to get it right. Also, as an individual plants gets bigger and as its grower gets to know better what that plant likes, the flowers are bound to get better as well

 

[monocotman]

Flowering improvement

Phrags and cyps can improve the flower size, shape and colour for years depending on the size and development of the plant.
David

 

[garysan]

Thanks guys. I'll be more patient with my Dick Clements with slightly boxy pouch...

 

[Rick]

The reference is to the first year of flowering vs the second, etc, not the first flower of an inflorescence vs the second. Most plant groups dont put out the best or even functional flowers on their first year of flowering and need a few years to get it right. Also, as an individual plants gets bigger and as its grower gets to know better what that plant likes, the flowers are bound to get better as well

Well a lot of generalization for many specific situations.

For instance Phrag fisheri have been pretty notorious for producing lousy first flowers on spikes year after year (although most of these plants die before getting a chance to prove themselves beyond a few years). But in these plants the successive flowers are often better than the first.

This may be similar for other phrags besides fischeri, but IMO this is really a culture problem and not a normal characteristic of the species.

Bulldog paphs (highly bred / complex hybrids) seem to fit the pattern as you describe Kostas

In big multifloral paphs, I don't see any distortion in first blooms, but flower size and flower count often improve with plant age.


I agree with Kosta on "also, as an individual plants gets bigger and as its grower gets to know better what that plant likes" to an extent. If the plant survives the culture conditions that supported it during the first blooming, a larger plant can sometimes grow beyond unsuitable culture, or the grower will alter culture conditions and the plant will start making better flowers. I think this is where the mythology of pinching off first time spikes comes from.

 

[garysan]

Here he is: Phrag. Memoria Dick Clements 4N.

Not the greatest image I've ever took and doesn't really show the not-very-roundness of the pouch which has what looks like, some small dents where it hasn't 'formed' properly. The second bloom which has started to open this afternoon looks to be going the same way.

 

[Rick]

Not every flower has to be award quality. That one looks just fine.:wink:

Is this plant growing SH or do you restrict water? It takes a lot of water and good humidity to make big round flowers. Especially for phrags. So look at those parameters before blaming age and breeding.

 

[garysan]

Not every flower has to be award quality. That one looks just fine.:wink:

Is this plant growing SH or do you restrict water? It takes a lot of water and good humidity to make big round flowers. Especially for phrags. So look at those parameters before blaming age and breeding.

S/H in rockwool with saucer about 1" deep (I bought it in rockwool a few months ago and was about ready to repot it into normal bark mix when the spike appeared).

Fully re-watered every three days. Humidity in there varies between 45% (very lowest I've seen it) to about 70% with fogger switched on (most of the day).

 

[Happypaphy7]

I know quite a few people here say "oh, it'll be better on the next bloom" when someone post a picture of a first flowering paph that is not good.
I know it happens, but I find it rather annoying because it sounds as if that is the trend, which is not true. I understand they are being kind and want to perhaps make others feel better.

As far as bulldog paphs are concerned, I know that breeders jump on the quality first bloom seedlings and cross with something. When they have a few exceptional ones, they "discard" the rest.
The only time they would keep slightly deformed or less than desirable first time bloomers and bloom them again (and rarely third time) to see if there would be any improvement is when they see something they are looking for, such as perfect dorsal or petal, or very unusual color combo, or unusually good size.

I have yet to see first blooming uglies which "improve" on the subsequent blooming. Again, it's definitely possible to improve, but it is definitely not the trend nor guarantee.
What I see more often is that good first bloomers would have worse quality flowers in the second and third, or quality of bloom differs on each blooming, up and down.
Then, there are some that are quite consistent everytime, and I love these reliable ones the best.

I remember one particular green bulldog whose super glossy and very thick textured flower and color I loved, but there were just too many wrinkles and folds on the dorsal. I bloomed it again. The following season, the flower was almost perfectly round and flat, but atlas! it had a very deformed lip, which looked as if it had been exposed to some nuclear pollution. very small and wrinkled up that you can barely see it.
I bloomed it again the third time, and I don't even want to describe it but to say that I threw it away without thinking twice.

So, yeah, this is my experience.
I usually don't keep the first time uglies. They hardly "improves".

Now, other plants, I don't see much deformity but it's just a matter of personal taste of overall shape, size, colors and such I would say.

 

[garysan]

To follow up; I don't believe it's a humidity thing per se as I've other phrags in that same orchidarium that have flowered perfectly (Eric Young, Cape Bonanza & Ainsworthii) plus a couple of species paphs.

This is the first phrag I've had that's on its first inflorescence, the others above were all older plants, hence my ask

 

[Rick]

To follow up; I don't believe it's a humidity thing per se as I've other phrags in that same orchidarium that have flowered perfectly (Eric Young, Cape Bonanza & Ainsworthii) plus a couple of species paphs.

This is the first phrag I've had that's on its first inflorescence, the others above were all older plants, hence my ask

Well its not far from perfect. It sounds like a new plant that hasn't had its home stabilized yet. Another growth or 2 and bigger root mass, and it will be perfect:wink:

 

[garysan]

Well its not far from perfect. It sounds like a new plant that hasn't had its home stabilized yet. Another growth or 2 and bigger root mass, and it will be perfect:wink:

Thanks Rick