Gloria Naugle 'Crimson Beauty' 89.4 AM/AOS

paphioland · Jul 25, 2009

Gloria Naugle 'Crimson Beauty' 89.4 AM/AOS

Dorsal 5.8, PW 3.7, NS 18.4 - two very well formed and colored flowers

Bigger than every GN ever awarded the highest previous recent award was an 86 and it was inferior in every way.

I hate showing plants but my friend asked to take it for judging. I thought it would be a good test so I let him. Again the AOS judging system never seems to amaze me. This is clearly an FCC flower. Most judges gave it comfortably an FCC score. I know two judges gave it a 92. One Judge gave it an 85 and refused to change when given the chance after knowing his score was off. He kept the score because "the pouch was big" and he didn't want it to be an FCC. Obviously he has never seen a micranthum or its hybrids or know why people use it for breeding. Interestingly the judge and my friend used to be friendly but recently had a little tiff over something ridiculous and now don't talk. Just craziness. I was not there because I would not waste my time but this was relayed to me from multiple reliable source. This was an easier test than the caudatum 'Perfection', since the records are more clear concerning this GN compared to past awards and it is more common. LOL. Just have to laugh.

Candace · Jul 25, 2009

When I saw the score, I cringed. So close... If it blooms out a hair larger next time it will get the FCC. It's a gorgeous plant regardless of awards. Congrats on the AM, even though I know it irks you.

SlipperFan · Jul 25, 2009

Looks like ignorance prevailed. But congrats on the AM.

paphioland · Jul 25, 2009

Candace said:
When I saw the score, I cringed. So close... If it blooms out a hair larger next time it will get the FCC. It's a gorgeous plant regardless of awards. Congrats on the AM, even though I know it irks you.

Thanks Candace.

Yeah it irks me because this was clearly an FCC. Giving an 85 is unethical. The 86 given before was clearly inferior. I am not saying this is the best ever but this is the best GN ever shown to AOS judging and it has been around awhile never getting an FCC. Look at the past data. It was even better than in these photos since it had a second very well held high flower. I know how good the plant is so that does not bother me. What irks me is how imperfect and possibly political aos judging is. I cant trust awards at all when buying select plants. I either have to know and trust the person who is selling's eye or see the plant in bloom myself. This just makes collecting select paphs that can be expensive more difficult and a crap shoot.

KyushuCalanthe · Jul 25, 2009

That score of 85 is a laugh, or more appropriately a cry. An amazing flower, no matter what. I'm sure you're plenty pleased about having it.

Wendy · Jul 25, 2009

I KNEW this was a good one! I'm also disappointed that they didn't give it the FCC. To me it is that good...I hope it gets the upgrade in the future. Congratulations to you anyway...well done!!! :clap:

Is this a recent photo? if not could you post a new one (please?)....I love this flower!

paphioland · Jul 25, 2009

Wendy said:
I KNEW this was a good one! I'm also disappointed that they didn't give it the FCC. To me it is that good...I hope it gets the upgrade in the future. Congratulations to you anyway...well done!!! :clap:

Is this a recent photo? if not could you post a new one (please?)....I love this flower!

I will in the near future. have to take one so can see 2 flowers well

slippertalker · Jul 25, 2009

A lovely flower.....As one that has also received an 89 pt AM before, I know how you feel.......Most judges are more than fair, it's too bad that one couldn't budge. Usually they can be shamed into making it work. Don't read more into the situation than there is, some people see a plant differently and that is their opinion.

John M · Jul 25, 2009

slippertalker said:
.....some people see a plant differently and that is their opinion.

But, isn't the whole point of having a judging "system" so that standards are established and plants do NOT get awarded based on an individual judges opinion; but rather, on the flower quality as it compares to the established AOS standards?

Situations like this is why I'm no longer interested in judging. I used to go to every judging, every month, as well as exhibit at shows. I found that it's more of a popularity contest than it is a fair critiquing of a flower's attributes. Most of the judges that I know use their own personal likes and dislikes as criteria for point scoring (including what they personally like to see in a flower, as well as how well they like the exhibitor); when they should be using the AOS standards of quality to guide them in their critiquing.

A point score of 89.4, with a point spread of 7 points among the judges, is an absolute disgrace and abuse of power by the low scoring judge. That judge has an axe to grind with somebody and he allowed his personal bias against that somebody to override his responsibility to the AOS judging system.

I once had a Phrag Dominianum pointed. The point score averaged out to 74.4. One judge in particular was about 8 points lower than the highest score and he was considerably lower than the next low score. However, he stubbornly refused to adjust his score; so the plant did not get the HCC. As it happens, earlier in the day, as I was parking my car, I noticed that I and this low scoring judge had been heading for the same parking spot....and it happened that I got there first and was half-way in before I even noticed that he was after the same spot. Not thinking it was a big deal (there were PLENTY of other spots), I just smiled, waved and mouthed "sorry". This guy was ROYALLY PISSED OFF! He took it so personally.....like I'd just slept with his wife, or stolen money out of his wallet, or something equally bad. He was as cold as ice in the judging room and then he got his revenge by ruining the point score on my plant.

I've got a number other similar stories of personality clashes between judges and exhibitors and as a result of too much negative first hand experience, I've come to think of the judging process as a complete joke.

Paphioland, I am very sorry for you in this situation. I can certainly understand your frustration. It's not a case of being a sore loser. It's a case of expecting professional, fair treatment and not getting it because of politics......a judge's personal bias and that sucks.

emydura · Jul 25, 2009

The pouch was too big!!!! Surely he could have come up with something better than that. Bizarre reason. FCC for sure.

David

paphioland · Jul 25, 2009

John M said:
But, isn't the whole point of having a judging "system" so that standards are established and plants do NOT get awarded based on an individual judges opinion; but rather, on the flower quality as it compares to the established AOS standards?

Situations like this is why I'm no longer interested in judging. I used to go to every judging, every month, as well as exhibit at shows. I found that it's more of a popularity contest than it is a fair critiquing of a flower's attributes. Most of the judges that I know use their own personal likes and dislikes as criteria for point scoring (including what they personally like to see in a flower, as well as how well they like the exhibitor); when they should be using the AOS standards of quality to guide them in their critiquing.

A point score of 89.4, with a point spread of 7 points among the judges, is an absolute disgrace and abuse of power by the low scoring judge. That judge has an axe to grind with somebody and he allowed his personal bias against that somebody to override his responsibility to the AOS judging system.

I once had a Phrag Dominianum pointed. The point score averaged out to 74.4. One judge in particular was about 8 points lower than the highest score and he was considerably lower than the next low score. However, he stubbornly refused to adjust his score; so the plant did not get the HCC. As it happens, earlier in the day, as I was parking my car, I noticed that I and this low scoring judge had been heading for the same parking spot....and it happened that I got there first and was half-way in before I even noticed that he was after the same spot. Not thinking it was a big deal (there were PLENTY of other spots), I just smiled, waved and mouthed "sorry". This guy was ROYALLY PISSED OFF! He took it so personally.....like I'd just slept with his wife, or stolen money out of his wallet, or something equally bad. He was as cold as ice in the judging room and then he got his revenge by ruining the point score on my plant.

I've got a number other similar stories of personality clashes between judges and exhibitors and as a result of too much negative first hand experience, I've come to think of the judging process as a complete joke.

Paphioland, I am very sorry for you in this situation. I can certainly understand your frustration. It's not a case of being a sore loser. It's a case of expecting professional, fair treatment and not getting it because of politics......a judge's personal bias and that sucks.

Thanks John,
It was a little strange that the guy and judge had recently had a falling out. I have no idea what his problem was but he was either a horrible judge of paphiopedilums and their hybrids based on the previous precedent or biased. I could see him saying it was an 89 or something but look at the recently awarded 86. How could he score it below that and then refuse to budge when he saw he was low compared to other paph competent judges?

paphioland · Jul 25, 2009

emydura said:
The pouch was too big!!!! Surely he could have come up with something better than that. Bizarre reason. FCC for sure.

David

yeah. If he said that he is very ingnorant when it comes to paph species and hybrids. Has he ever seen a micranthum? Isn't a larger pouch favorable? The pouch is bigger than the petals often.

emydura · Jul 25, 2009

They need a system similar to judging in the olympics where the highest and lowest scores are removed thereby minimising the impact an individual judge can have on the overall score.

David

Kevin · Jul 26, 2009

emydura said:
They need a system similar to judging in the olympics where the highest and lowest scores are removed thereby minimising the impact an individual judge can have on the overall score.

David

You mean like in figure skating? I seem to remember that was not quite 'by the books'. People will always find a way to by-pass the rules so that they can have their way. It's really sickening.

Kevin · Jul 26, 2009

Congrats on the award anyway, Paphioland. I've never seen one of those in person, and it must be incredible. Yours is the best one I've seen (in pictures)!

emydura · Jul 26, 2009

Kevin said:
You mean like in figure skating? I seem to remember that was not quite 'by the books'. People will always find a way to by-pass the rules so that they can have their way. It's really sickening.

Yes. They do it in the diving and gymnastics as well. I just think it is a way of preventing one rogue judge greatly influencing the decision. If you have a couple of judges disagreeing with the other judges than maybe there views are valid. No system is perfect but the current one is really open for abuse by a biased and vindictive judge.

David

JeanLux · Jul 26, 2009

yes, congratulations for this beauty!!!! Jean

Kavanaru · Jul 26, 2009

hhhmmm.... sad what has happened... I can recognize thar plant is great, however I am not that experienced to say whether AM or FCC on my own...

but I have a question... isn't it in the USA that the judges should not know who is the owner of the plants to be judged? I can recall to be told that if I ever bring a plant to be judged (in Zürich!) I must bring the plant at least 30 minutes earlier, so that it can be placed in the judging room before the judges come, and that anything that could indicate the plant belongs to me (or which nursery it comes from) should be removed...

OK, I must admit that I cannot ensure that this happens all the time, but at least if it is so, it is a good way to avoid some biass...

Bob in Albany N.Y. · Jul 26, 2009

All I can say in congratualtions and sorry you got robed. It is a great plant that any one of us would be happy to own. You and I both know it is a great example of that cross.

paphioland · Jul 26, 2009

Kavanaru said:
hhhmmm.... sad what has happened... I can recognize thar plant is great, however I am not that experienced to say whether AM or FCC on my own...

but I have a question... isn't it in the USA that the judges should not know who is the owner of the plants to be judged? I can recall to be told that if I ever bring a plant to be judged (in Zürich!) I must bring the plant at least 30 minutes earlier, so that it can be placed in the judging room before the judges come, and that anything that could indicate the plant belongs to me (or which nursery it comes from) should be removed...

OK, I must admit that I cannot ensure that this happens all the time, but at least if it is so, it is a good way to avoid some biass...

Like I said it is possible they didn't know but unlikely. It was brought days before and the person is a commercial orchid grower. People saw him with it. It is a shocking flower so I am sure people were talking and he had to keep it with him until judging which was a day later.

Gloria Naugle 'Crimson Beauty' 89.4 AM/AOS

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