tranlienianum legal?

[Roth]

Holger Perner's plants are grown in vitro in his lab and he has CITES permits for those brought into the US.

Mmmh.. Correct the sentence a little bit...

Holger Perner's plants has CITES permits for those brought into the US. Some plants are grown in vitro in his lab

This way it looks correct

 

[keithrs]

Rumor has it that Hengduan Biotech will have some at the SB orchid show this month..... Maybe even some flasks. Along with helenae, and areaanum.

 

[s1214215]

According to some people I know in Vietnam, some people working for CITES are so dense they dont even know what an orchid is when presented to them.

It was also put to me the main reason legal imports are not allowed by the Vietnamese authorities is that quite a few Vietnamese political elite are involved in plant smuggling and dont want legal plants getting out as keeping them illegal boosts the prices...

Well this is there suggestion, but I would not be at all surprised.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Mmmh.. Correct the sentence a little bit...



This way it looks correct

Now ... now, lets not muddy the waters unnecessarily. :evil:

We in the US want these species. If Holger can thread the paperwork issue, then he is my hero. :clap: Remember, the USA was founded by black market privateers, smugglers and robber barons. It is a time honored tradition.

The majority of Holger's exports into the USA will be flasks, and this is a good thing. We need more seed production of these plants to lighten the black market demand for collected plants.

 

[Bob in Albany N.Y.]

I've been trying to contact Holger at Hengduan Biotech but haven't been successful. The site seems to be down and has for some time. I was lucky enough to have a someone hand carry a couple of flasks back from the D.C. event and they are pretty big seedlings in flask. No way can I count 20 or 25 but upon deflasking, I can say there is 15 very strong seedlings in there. One of the better flasks, I've run across. If anyone can contact them please let me know as I'd like to order a couple of more flasks. I know he has already done the paperwork on what he is bringing in but I'd like to be fortunate again and get a pair of flasks and have him send them to me. I couldn't even hope to be so lucky again to have them hand carried, but certainly wouldn't mind if the opportunity presented it's self.

 

[NYEric]

I can actually hear the brownshirts massing for a visit to Albany!

 

[mormodes]

I can actually hear the brownshirts massing for a visit to Albany!

Why? They are legal. *You* may not believe it, but they are legal. With the proper paperwork from Perner. My question was how legal and the answer is just like delenatii or kovachii with the proper paperwork they are legal.

Rant <on>:
You know, in my limited study of orchid ranges I've come to believe that just about everything anyone says about the range in which an orchid occurs is either faked, or lied about or "hidden for protection from smugglers" (yeah, right) or somehow falsified. It started with the large fims of Sanders et al and continues today with things like these paphs and argh, the mexican phrag that's so hard to grow. So when Roth winks and nudges and says thse are really Vietnamese but we're saying they're from China, well who's to say? Like Leo says, people transport plants for a variety of reasons and they have *for centuries*. For medicine, for tourism, to catch a girls' eye. Whatever. If Perner says that no one noticed them before (or was it Averynov?) I can believe it becasue explorers were looking for timber or other ways to make money from large plants for their kings. No one notices a small warty herb growing on a cliff or in leaf litter. You may ask how can it be that no one noticed Phrag kovachii for when its in bloom it knocks yer socks off. Well what can I tell you. Explorers were stupid Europeans (for the most part) who were just looking for stuff for economic gain. When you go raping and pillaging you only have time to grab the big things. Remermber teh Europeans who 'discovered' the 'lost' temples of Kampuchea. The locals all knew it was there, the Europeans were the only ones who 'lost' it.

I was looking for the ranges of a Chysis species, went back through the few articles in the Bulletin and Orchid Digest. Found a few names of towns where these species could be found, looked them up on Google maps and guess what. They don't exist. Everyone lies. I was talking to Jim Rose of Cal-Orchid, he read about the occurance of a Stanhopea at the most northern limits of its range in Mexico. A nice article by a reputable author published some time ago, so when he was on vacation he and some friends decided to seek out this stanhopea. Guess what? It doesn't exist there and never could exist there. The geography just wasn't right. The locals said, oh, no. Those occur wayyy over on the other side of the mountains, they've never grown here. (silly gringo). Steve Beckendorf recently found two species lost to civilization, only to find that they existed in numbers, they were just totally inaccessible. Luckily they are now housed in a national park so hopefully protected. No one but an idiot would go looking for them. Or an orchid fiend. But his description of trying to get *into* the jungle just to go looking is classic: After you've failed miserably using your own devices ask the locals and they'll tell you where to find the orchids. They aren't the idiots. We are.

Rant <off>

So what's my point. Heck if I know. If Perner says these are in China then who am I to say anything different? They are there now. He went through the bureaucratic trouble, found a need and is filling it. More power to him. I understand the seedlings he sells are small, since they are presumably fresh out of flask. As he establishes nursery connections here I'm sure they'll grow bigger. Right now as far as I know he'd left a bunch of unsold seedlings with a friend after the 2011 Santa Barbara Orchid Fair (the SBOE summer sale at the SBOE and Fairgrounds) They were legal at that time and written about in the Orchid Digest and eventually sold at the Paph Guild in January. As far as I know the USFWS watches the SBOE sale like a hawk. 10-12 years ago a vendor was busted for importing some sort of palm or cycad with improper paperwork (which was totally bogus) but nevertheless cost some $$ to get out of. And the California FWS watches like a hawk to check that the phytosaniray permits are correct (light brown apple moth caused some headaches 4-5 years ago and some vendors weren't allowed to sell) So if Perner can get through their scrutiny then he's passed muster as far as I'm concerned.

Unless eveyone's lying. In which case I look like a silly gringo. That's OK. Looking foolish is familar territory to me. I even have maps to the tourist spots.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Well said Mormodes, well said.

oke: Eric, orchids are not illegal drugs, :evil: and the rules around them are not set up like the drug laws.

No orchid species is 'illegal'. It is only the method of importation to the USA that may or may not be illegal. Legality has nothing to do with species, just how it got here. Orchids are not regulated like heroin or Ecstasy. The only issue is whether or not a specific plant went through the importation process legally.

The AOS is often way behind what happens with USFWS. The blanket prohibitions to judge certain species has nothing to do with whether or not it is possible to import a plant legally. They are NOT a regulatory enforcement group. The AOS does this for political reasons. They don't make allowances for the possibility somebody does follow the rules and works with USFWS to import a plant. I have yet to figure out how the AOS decides to lift their ban on juding certain species. :evil: Sometime I think they just wait until they see a plant is so common in the USA that you stop posting that "its illegal" oke: Just teasing my friend.

When talking about 'legal' orchids, nobody worries about Paph armeniacum, micranthum being legal or illegal. They are so common in the US that there is nobody checking on these. No worry right? After the 1988 CITES convention and before the 1998? (I'm fuzzy on the exact dates), there were tens of thousands of these species imported into the USA. During this roughly decade period there were only a dozen or so importations that had all the then required documents from both mainland China and USFWS. By 1998 of the thousands and thousands of armeniacum and micranthums in the USA only a couple hundred were imported legally. The rest were 'slipped in' with less than complete or correct documentation. So today when you go to an orchid show, for the armeniacum and the micranthum there, I would estimate that less than 10% of them are 'legal' in terms of their import status. And now 30+ years later the USFWS still considers the 'fruit of the poison tree as poison' so today they still would be eligible for confiscation if the USFW had any chance of proving in court how that plant came in. But there are enough legal plants that it is hopeless for them to try, so the issue gets quietly ignored.

 

[NYEric]

Why? They are legal.

So when Roth winks and nudges and says thse are really Vietnamese but we're saying they're from China, well who's to say? If Perner says these are in China then who am I to say anything different? They are there now. He went through the bureaucratic trouble, found a need and is filling it. More power to him. I understand the seedlings he sells are small, since they are presumably fresh out of flask. Unless eveyone's lying. In which case I look like a silly gringo. That's OK. Looking foolish is familar territory to me. I even have maps to the tourist spots.

Um, BTW, unless you do believe some of these plants are endemic to China, the GOVERNMENT of Vietnam, says these vietnamese species are not legal. If they got to China somehow, guess what! Still illegal. Now I know of plants in a collection you cant imagine; the owner would never claim they are legal. More power to Perner for making his move, I doubt the goverment of China give a $#!+ about what the government of VN says, they dont give a $#!+ about what our government says; so if you get some good for you. If the situation was reversed however and some species endemic to CHina came through VN, and the Chinese businessmen could not get their cut, trust me the protests and the crack down would be serious. Are the plants desireable? Yes; but dont hand me crap about them being legal.

 

[Hien]

NYEric sums it up nicely.

 

[JeanLux]

Why? They are legal. *You* may not believe it, but they are legal...

Rant <on>:
You know, in my limited study of orchid ranges I've come to believe that ....
So when Roth winks and nudges and says .. If Perner says ...

Explorers were stupid Europeans (for the most part) ... The locals all knew it was there, the !!?? were the only ones who 'lost' it.

...Rant <off>

So what's my point. ..

I always believed (until now) that this forum is not a political one !!!

Roth and Perner, both, are Europeans!!

I don't understand (maybe because not being of english tongue) why you bring it up this way!?

I, as one of those stupid Europeans, have some tranlienianums, and try to grow them!?

Jean

 

[likespaphs]

i thought Vietnam was not a signatory to cites
or am i confusing it with a different country?

 

[mormodes]

dont hand me crap about them being legal.

If the plants were transferred to China from Vietnam since 1965 or 1988 I'd agree with you. But there's no evidence of that, nor is there any evidence to dispute claims that these plants were just overlooked before. Nor can anyone say that these weren't moved in history way before implemetation of any trade agreements. The Vietnamese government and businessmen have just as much of an economic/political stake to these species as the opposite side, so why believe them? Who's to say both sides aren't posturing? If you want to believe they are illegal fine. You are welcome to your opinion. We can agree to disagree.

 

[mormodes]

i thought Vietnam was not a signatory to cites
or am i confusing it with a different country?

I believe they signed on in the 1990s. You could check the CITES web page to be sure about the date. But they were requested to sign, so they did. Doesn't mean they have to approve anything for export though.

 

[likespaphs]

yup, '94
i think i was confusing them with Taiwan

 

[Hien]

If the plants were transferred to China from Vietnam since 1965 or 1988 I'd agree with you. But there's no evidence of that, nor is there any evidence to dispute claims that these plants were just overlooked before. Nor can anyone say that these weren't moved in history way before implemetation of any trade agreements. The Vietnamese government and businessmen have just as much of an economic/political stake to these species as the opposite side, so why believe them? Who's to say both sides aren't posturing? If you want to believe they are illegal fine. You are welcome to your opinion. We can agree to disagree.

If you must have the plant , by all means, have it.
Does it matter whether tranlienianum is vietnamese or chinese or peruvian...
Many orchids belong to the category "don't ask don't tell'. If it helps to have them legally, it is good for many american orchid nurseries here, to do all their own breedings, and compete. I am happy for us.
Many of us known the Vietnamese government to be inept when it comes to deal with the big brother China. Many things have been transferred to China for thousands of years from all of the countries around China (ever think why it was called the middle kingdom?) (the best musicians, the beautiful girls, the best artisans for each trade etc..it was call paying tribute ). Since the North took over of running the whole country, the vietnamese lost land & sea to China, they even lose the famous border gate "ai nam quan" now inside China.
Losing a few orchids to China, it is no big deal....
hangianum, tranlienianum, helena etc.. why were they discovered in Vietnam first then were looking for in China later....? overlook.. really...why stop there? perhaps , we should discover some Chinamense that look exactly like the Vietnamense..
I really hope there will be still a country called Vietnam in the future, and not an autonomous province of China call Vietnam (similar to Tibet)

 

[Hakone]

Paph. tranlienianum described in 1998 by Olaf Gruss and Perner. If Paph. tranlienianum is growing in China , why was not found there, but seriously after 1998.

If the plants were transferred to China from Vietnam since 1965 or 1988:

Why were transferred this plant (to this date no name) from Vietnam to China. Who does what for a purpose, this time the plant was unknown

 

[NYEric]

The Vietnamese government and businessmen have just as much of an economic/political stake to these species as the opposite side, so why believe them? Who's to say both sides aren't posturing? If you want to believe they are illegal fine. You are welcome to your opinion. We can agree to disagree.

OK, no big deal. If you want some I know a source. Dont ask about papers though.

 

[Roth]

Now ... now, lets not muddy the waters unnecessarily. :evil:

We in the US want these species. If Holger can thread the paperwork issue, then he is my hero. :clap:

The majority of Holger's exports into the USA will be flasks, and this is a good thing. We need more seed production of these plants to lighten the black market demand for collected plants.

That's in part true, though for species like hangianum, no one can compete with the profit on a jungle, precultivated plant, by making flasks, as long as there will be wild collected plants available of course in the jungle. When it's extinct, that's another story.

If the plants were transferred to China from Vietnam since 1965 or 1988 I'd agree with you. But there's no evidence of that, nor is there any evidence to dispute claims that these plants were just overlooked before. Nor can anyone say that these weren't moved in history way before implemetation of any trade agreements. The Vietnamese government and businessmen have just as much of an economic/political stake to these species as the opposite side, so why believe them? Who's to say both sides aren't posturing? If you want to believe they are illegal fine. You are welcome to your opinion. We can agree to disagree.

Holger sells the plants, and they are legal, we can be happy for that. On the other side, there are masses of hangianum from the wild that are precultivated in China right now, ready to flood the market, now that hangianum is legal. Hangianum only comes from Vietnam, and to know it as a fact, no one has ever seen a wild plant of it, and the only sources all the people in China are using to get hangianum are Vietnamese traders...

According to some people I know in Vietnam, some people working for CITES are so dense they dont even know what an orchid is when presented to them.

It was also put to me the main reason legal imports are not allowed by the Vietnamese authorities is that quite a few Vietnamese political elite are involved in plant smuggling and dont want legal plants getting out as keeping them illegal boosts the prices...

Well this is there suggestion, but I would not be at all surprised.

That's once again a conspiracy theory, in fact that's way more simple.

The CITES in Vietnam gave licence to 3 nurseries a decade ago to export plants, including paph species. One of them was Javeco. They got many complains from various customs around the world, as the plants sent were just a big bunch of fresh jungle crap, from dendrobium to paphiopedilum. Those were some of the largest smuggling operation ever seen, with a CITES to launder all of that. So they decided to avoid being banned by the CITES ( which would have dramatic consequences on the export of crocodile and lizard skins, which are economically very important in Vietnam), to ban those three nurseries, and make getting CITES permit for orchids much more difficult.

This said, there are not many nurseries that qualify to export orchid species in Vietnam. Apart from me, and maybe Mick now, all the nurseries just trade fresh wild plants, or barely established stuff, through all the borders and they have NO cultivated stock of any kind.

The officials are not involved, there is no corruption or market control by high rank officials, the collectors sell directly to people from Lao or China who come to their houses, all around Vietnam, that's it. No bribes, no tips, they go to the forest and unload the pickup in the pickup on the way to China, Lao or Cambodia.

Last, with CITES, the price of the orchids would increase, as the Vietnamese could export overseas. At present time it is impossible, or nearly so, and the smuggling goes through Thailand for most of it, where the plants get a CITES export permit. Other than that, the Vietnamese have to sell at local price, which is a tenth to a hundredth of the market price. With proper export permits, they could afford to sell their plants at a much higher price. Holger sells hangianum at 150 USD because they have a CITES, but without, the same plant is one or two dollars and no one in this world would pay more, as an example of the real economics. Plants are nothing, CITES are everything in the price of a plant, except few very specific things.

 

[Marc]

Explorers were stupid Europeans (for the most part) who were just looking for stuff for economic gain. When you go raping and pillaging you only have time to grab the big things. Remermber teh Europeans who 'discovered' the 'lost' temples of Kampuchea. The locals all knew it was there, the Europeans were the only ones who 'lost' it.

I don't want to defend the Conquistadors that I asume you are talking about in any way. But the way your post is written gives me the idea that you have something against people from Europe in general. oke:

If it's misinterpretation / mistranslation by me no pun intended but it would be nice if you could clear this up.