Slipper Orchid Survival

[NYEric]

FYI. Recently some eBay vendors have been visited and had their export permits suspended due to complaints about eBay purchases. Rumor has it that the source of the complaints haunts our forum. I don't know if it is for personal greed, or some misguided belief that CITES enforcement is always beneficial to the survival of Slippers in the wild. I believe that in some cases, collectors went crazy and scoured the sites of plants until hardly a trace remained and these collected plants were wasted because propagation and distribution efforts were insufficient, Paph. canhii for example. I believe in other cases plants were distributed to responsible growers and the lab/nursery grown prodigy totally relieved the burden from wild collected populations, Paph. sanderianum for example. I know that a large amounts of a certain newer species were removed from the wild and the collector is making serious efforts to both distribute the plants and to propagate them. The interference caused by the actions of the complaintant could have serious effects on the plans of this collector. I open this thread in hope of a response from the originator of the eBay complaints; and I welcome input from all participants of this forum.

 

[jtrmd]

you have to tel us the vendors. Otherwise you leave us to guess who lol.

 

[NYEric]

That's not really important, the point is does stopping vendor sales really help orchid conservation. Every plant of canhii could have been distributed and possibly propagated. Instead they languished and died in the streets. Of course it would have been better if they were left in Nature; but once someone found out that they could make some money...

 

[troy]

Huh, you have a point eric, no matter what, they are getting stripped out of the wild, better to get them to somebody who can propagate them

 

[jtrmd]

That's not really important, the point is does stopping vendor sales really help orchid conservation. Every plant of canhii could have been distributed and possibly propagated. Instead they languished and died in the streets. Of course it would have been better if they were left in Nature; but once someone found out that they could make some money...

I was joking. I think anyone who has been on Ebay lately see's all the wild plants for sale.

 

[ehanes7612]

I suppose the argument for the authorities would be the following :" if they don't have the legal means to export plants, then the incentive for collecting is diminished"..of course, the incentive for these collectors may be local sales and what they sell on ebay is left over.

 

[Secundino]

Huh, you have a point eric, no matter what, they are getting stripped out of the wild, better to get them to somebody who can propagate them

You are kidding, aren't you?

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Ah, this always is a tough issue. After seeing Cyps in the wild in Sichuan (along with thousands of seedlings being propagated by Holger Perner), I realized I'd never purposely buy another wild collected plant. Still, it is a complicated matter that won't be resolved by stopping illegal shipments to where ever. Considering that a crazy percentage of botanicals are wild sourced though, I don't think any serious collector's hands aren't at least a little dirty. Still, I can't really support flagrant practices that are often seen with online auctions (same thing happening here in Nippon).

For an interesting perspective on the way CITES (along with the infamous Lacey Act) has been applied in the US, see Carson Whitlow's article about his struggle to get Cypripedium kentuckiense into the trade (which it was eventually):

Blueprint for Extinction

A rational approach to orchid conservation? Hmm.

 

[troy]

Don't twist what I said!! What I'm implying is the u.s. import laws are ridiculuous, I think an endangered plant would have a better survival rate with somebody who can propagate it, that is very easy to understand, I think that a whole subspecies dying on the floor of a local marketplace, or what do you think of that?

 

[Secundino]

And, while saving the world, making lots of money as well. Genial!

Have been there and not done it, many times. The only safe way is protecting the biologic heritage we all have - in every country; this is not limited to orchids. Not for mere aesthetic reasons, but for long time survival of mankind as well. What do we need to preserve a single subspecies for if its habitat is lost?
That 'floor of a local marketplace'-reasoning is an extortion, as is the poor indio who needs to sell bulb for bulb for his living.

 

[NYEric]

Saving the habitat is impossible, that is not what humans do. We change it. Don't forget, we are also the species with the fastest increasing population . If one has to expat to a country and marry a native to propagate a species...well that is a bit much! I do believe distribution of canhiis would have been better than the waste of the plants in local markets.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I agree, Secun.
Leaving them in the wild is the best way to save them.
Otherwise "saving" really is delusional.

Unfortunately, as long as there's demand, there will be supply no matter what the law is. It's how to better enforce the law and keep illegal collection or over collecting to the minimum possible that is the real question.

 

[mormodes]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the person who found rungsurianum had it in flask before Gruss published the paper identifying it. He has a few hybrids with it in flask already too. And I thought a few recently identified phrags (Colombia?) were in flask before publication, too. Just so the usual rape of the wilderness didn't occur. I thought that was pretty cool of them to have a supply in place before going public. But then... well. I've been wrong before... Not about having a supply in place, about possibly misrememebring.

 

[mormodes]

FYI. Recently some eBay vendors have been visited and had their export permits suspended due to complaints about eBay purchases.

That's an interesting comment. Legally, how does that work? I'm wondering about how long it actually takes to have a permit suspended. Can a USFWS agent simply 'badge' you and suspend your permit? Does the Department make the judgement call to suspend or take the permit? Or does a judge suspend the permit after some sort of due process? Any lawyers here?

I'm serious. The only Lacey Act cases I know of were the result of an arrest, which didn't happen here. A judge or some other level of bureaucracy has to get involved before a suspension can be issued, no? yes? Its not like this happens overnight or without some sort of "evidence" - real or imagined.

Or maybe it does, hence my question.

 

[NYEric]

Who said it was a USFWS situation?

 

[gonewild]

That's an interesting comment. Legally, how does that work? I'm wondering about how long it actually takes to have a permit suspended. Can a USFWS agent simply 'badge' you and suspend your permit? Does the Department make the judgement call to suspend or take the permit? Or does a judge suspend the permit after some sort of due process? Any lawyers here?

I'm serious. The only Lacey Act cases I know of were the result of an arrest, which didn't happen here. A judge or some other level of bureaucracy has to get involved before a suspension can be issued, no? yes? Its not like this happens overnight or without some sort of "evidence" - real or imagined.

Or maybe it does, hence my question.

USFW can revoke a permit on their own.

 

[Rick]

I guess what bothers me the most about the way CITES is implemented (with regard to orchids) looks more like protectionist enforcement for commerce in the country of origin. Not really a concern of species conservation.

It's apparent that ex situ propagation success is drastically improved from 10 years ago. Pk is a good example. There's no need to buy a jungle collected PK.

I also doubt that there's any need to buy jungle collected emersonii or hangianum. Holger P can probably support US demand for the Vietnamese species without needing collected plants.

But once a plant is out of the country of origin, folks can generally propagate pretty easy, and cut out the starving collector.

That leaves the locals starving with nothing to do but tear down the rainforest and convert to coffee, cacao, or palm oil plantations.

 

[cnycharles]

I am a firm believer in conservation and trying to keep some unusual habitats alive so that orchids can survive where they should be. I have taken many orchid pics in situ and have no native orchids that I grow (or cyps from other countries). That said, in most places orchids and many other plants are removed from their habitat with reckless abandon, given the opportunity. There should be an avenue created for the plant side of cites, given that plants can be rapidly multiplied in comparison to animals, so that seedlings can be made available. It is great to have the mindset to conserve and protect places, but if it's not your country then there is no way to stop those in those countries from doing whatever they think they need to survive, or to feed the giant maw of plant pharmaceuticals in the eastern hemisphere.
even in south america as populations expand, forest gets cut and burned to raise cattle or companies chop trees to make way for whatever; there is little stopping anyone from this catch 22. I don't condone illegal activity, but I see that otherwise plants get collected anyhow and die whether or not someone buys them. if demand is perceived, even if nobody is actually buying, then they are dug and brought to market