This is a first bloom seedling from a flask I deflasked in March of 2004. Total width: 10cm; total height:7cm; petal width: 5cm. Paph Sugar Suite = Paph emersonii x Paph niveum.
Paph Sugar Suite
- Thread starter Ross
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Rick
Well-Known Member
That looks delicate, with some nice highlights.
And that sounds like a tough combination. I'm amazed it got from flask to flowering in 2 years. Great job Ross
And that sounds like a tough combination. I'm amazed it got from flask to flowering in 2 years. Great job Ross
SlipperFan
Addicted
Is the pouch small, or the petals large????
P
Park Bear
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the white petals look like lace
Rick Barry
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Sugar Suite and CITES
An interesting consequence of CITES is the misnaming of certain Paph hybrids due to the legal inplications of selling plants bred from undocumented parents. In the U.S. plants are being sold as Sugar Suite (emersonii x niveum) when in fact they are actually Paph Chou-Yi Yuki (hangianum x niveum) in order to avoid legal complications. Some sellers privately acknowledge this. The result is that no Sugar Suite can be fairly judged unless it can be determined that it is in fact truly what it is purported to be, a practical impossibility. Paph Chou-Yi Yuki (certainly the ones I've seen) appears to be an improved (perhaps vastly) Sugar Suite, but judging it as one makes a mockery of the judging process.
Similarly, plants bred from Paph vietnamense will undoubtedly be presented as the equivalent delenatii hybrids for the same (or, possibly, unethical) reasons.
It isn't my purpose to debate CITES here, but truly the best of intentions have unforeseen consequences!
An interesting consequence of CITES is the misnaming of certain Paph hybrids due to the legal inplications of selling plants bred from undocumented parents. In the U.S. plants are being sold as Sugar Suite (emersonii x niveum) when in fact they are actually Paph Chou-Yi Yuki (hangianum x niveum) in order to avoid legal complications. Some sellers privately acknowledge this. The result is that no Sugar Suite can be fairly judged unless it can be determined that it is in fact truly what it is purported to be, a practical impossibility. Paph Chou-Yi Yuki (certainly the ones I've seen) appears to be an improved (perhaps vastly) Sugar Suite, but judging it as one makes a mockery of the judging process.
Similarly, plants bred from Paph vietnamense will undoubtedly be presented as the equivalent delenatii hybrids for the same (or, possibly, unethical) reasons.
It isn't my purpose to debate CITES here, but truly the best of intentions have unforeseen consequences!
littlefrog
Hop-meister
This came up last month, actually. Or maybe it was the month before. I think it was a Mem. Larry Heuer (or close) that I was sure was made with hangianum, not emersonii. It was so far superior to previous awards it wasn't even fair. It did have a few flaws, but not the awful pouch and weird petals that are so typical of emersonii hybrids.
We debated it for a while, decided there was nothing we could really know for sure, and that it was within the range of what an exquisite emersonii could do, so we awarded it anyway. The exhibitor later told me that he had asked the vendor if it was a hangianum hybrid instead of emersonii, and he was told that it was definitely emersonii (I have no reason to believe this vendor would have concealed the true identity). So I guess we did the right thing.
We debated it for a while, decided there was nothing we could really know for sure, and that it was within the range of what an exquisite emersonii could do, so we awarded it anyway. The exhibitor later told me that he had asked the vendor if it was a hangianum hybrid instead of emersonii, and he was told that it was definitely emersonii (I have no reason to believe this vendor would have concealed the true identity). So I guess we did the right thing.
emersonii vs. hangianum in Sugar Suite
Hey...
I don't know if you've ever had a chance to compare real vs "fake" Sugar Suites....the "fake" ones (Chou-Yi Yuki) look totally different. The major differences are significantly heavier substance - none of the "translucence" associated with emersonii hybrids, and more red coloration, especially in the petals. From having seen a number of Paph. Chou-Yi Yuki (labeled as Sugar Suite) at a reputable CA nursery, differences this obvious are very unlikely to affect judging in a serious manner. Much more likely is that unscrupulous breeders will involve these species in non-primary crosses, diluting the obvious effects of the illegal parent. As a judge, this is just my two cents...
-Tim
Hey...
I don't know if you've ever had a chance to compare real vs "fake" Sugar Suites....the "fake" ones (Chou-Yi Yuki) look totally different. The major differences are significantly heavier substance - none of the "translucence" associated with emersonii hybrids, and more red coloration, especially in the petals. From having seen a number of Paph. Chou-Yi Yuki (labeled as Sugar Suite) at a reputable CA nursery, differences this obvious are very unlikely to affect judging in a serious manner. Much more likely is that unscrupulous breeders will involve these species in non-primary crosses, diluting the obvious effects of the illegal parent. As a judge, this is just my two cents...
-Tim
TADD
Rootless Wonder
Well done Ross!
This particular Sugar Suite is the first bloomer from a flask I purchased a couple years ago from Sam Tsui at Orchid Inn. I have no reason to doubt that this is an authentic Paph Sugar Suite cross. The flower size bears that out as it is in the range of other awarded Sugar Suites from 1997 to 2000.
SlipperFan said:
A liitle of both.
Rick Barry
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A few additional comments-
I don't want to imply that the Sugar Suite pictured is anything but that. Such an implication would be both arrogant and offensive to the grower.
I'm sceptical of the ability of most judging teams to distinguish between the best Sugar Suite and your average Chou-Yi Yuki. Futhermore, how many judges have the backbone to reject any such plant as clearly misidentified, particularly if the exhibitor is one of that judge's own colleagues? Lest you place too much faith in the judging system, I suggest you review the stories behind 2 awarded clones of Phrag schlimii, 'Birchwood' and 'Wilcox'.
I too purchased one of the faux Sugar Suites from a very prominent grower (and judge) here in the Bay Area. In conversation he readily volunteered the fact that it is in reality Chou-Yi Yuki, but that he didn't want to deal with the legal implications of selling the progeny of illegal (and probably wild-collected) plants. I am pretty certain where these plants originated from, having had the opportunity to purchase flasks at the same venue several years ago.
All this may be considered a tempest in a teapot, but that may depend upon what value you place upon accuracy in record keeping.
I don't want to imply that the Sugar Suite pictured is anything but that. Such an implication would be both arrogant and offensive to the grower.
I'm sceptical of the ability of most judging teams to distinguish between the best Sugar Suite and your average Chou-Yi Yuki. Futhermore, how many judges have the backbone to reject any such plant as clearly misidentified, particularly if the exhibitor is one of that judge's own colleagues? Lest you place too much faith in the judging system, I suggest you review the stories behind 2 awarded clones of Phrag schlimii, 'Birchwood' and 'Wilcox'.
I too purchased one of the faux Sugar Suites from a very prominent grower (and judge) here in the Bay Area. In conversation he readily volunteered the fact that it is in reality Chou-Yi Yuki, but that he didn't want to deal with the legal implications of selling the progeny of illegal (and probably wild-collected) plants. I am pretty certain where these plants originated from, having had the opportunity to purchase flasks at the same venue several years ago.
All this may be considered a tempest in a teapot, but that may depend upon what value you place upon accuracy in record keeping.
Judging "falsies"
The judging program is very well aware of these issues. It's been brought up at a number of meetings and especially the major AOS judging committee meetings. We've already screened out plants based on how we've felt about the correct parentage of them, especially with vietnamense crosses (like Pinnochio x vietnamense, which came in and was screened out last year, and not because it wasn't spectacular). So for those of you with the real deal who are concerned about getting them scored, don't be...=)
Regards,
Tim
The judging program is very well aware of these issues. It's been brought up at a number of meetings and especially the major AOS judging committee meetings. We've already screened out plants based on how we've felt about the correct parentage of them, especially with vietnamense crosses (like Pinnochio x vietnamense, which came in and was screened out last year, and not because it wasn't spectacular). So for those of you with the real deal who are concerned about getting them scored, don't be...=)
Regards,
Tim
B
Bob Wellenstein
Guest
That's an oxymoron on many levels and is revealing on many levels
Rick Barry said:
No offense taken, Rick.
Not being an expert in plant identification, I was simply giving pertinent information that I have concerning this cross. I have also seen one of these Sugar Suites made with emersonii 'Large Form', and it's size would dwarf my true Sugar Suite. The form, however was not very good.
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
Lovely delicate white flower!
Why would hybrids ever be banned from judging?! That sounds really silly to me. I've got vietnamense crosses, will they be banned from judging?
Why would hybrids ever be banned from judging?! That sounds really silly to me. I've got vietnamense crosses, will they be banned from judging?
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smartie2000 said:
If a hybrid is made with a species that is not yet regarded as being legal, it can be disqualified for judging.
I don't know the current "status" of vietnamense hybrids, but at last year's NHOS show, they were not pulled for judging, despite there being some very nice examples of both the species and its' hybrids.
M
Mycorrhizae
Guest
One of the Imposters
Here is a photo of a plant that was labeled as Paph. Sugar Suite. It is almost certainly one of the imposters, in other words, Paph. Chou-Yi Yuki. The size, substance, shape and markings all point to Paph. hangianum.
Here is a photo of a plant that was labeled as Paph. Sugar Suite. It is almost certainly one of the imposters, in other words, Paph. Chou-Yi Yuki. The size, substance, shape and markings all point to Paph. hangianum.
Bob in Albany N.Y.
Well-Known Member
Here's one of mine that I purchased as Sugar Suite. I also believe that this one is an impostor. The next time I saw the seller (one of my favorite sellers) I asked him about it. He also stated that when he started seeing them bloom that he thought they may very well be impostors. Do you guys and gals agree with me?
Rick Barry
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Perhaps no truly competant judge would confuse the two, but what about the rest of 'em?
