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biothanasis
Guest
This is the second paph I got today!!!! I had to pot it in another pot cause it was with the other in one pot! The pouch is deformed,but there is another flower coming!! It has 3 growths!!! Could you ID this, too, please??? Thank you anyway...
(Maybe Maudiae type???)
(Maybe Maudiae type???)
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paphioboy
hehehe...
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Great purchases..!! I love the leaves.. So gorgeous..!! :drool: Sorry but I can'r provide a positive ID.. I think the first one has more callosum influence and the second one has more influence from lawrenceanum or fowliei..
Rick
Well-Known Member
They're definitely Maudiae but the color is so nice and rich it looks like they may have either a vini collosum or barbatum in them.
John M
Orchid Addict
Rick, you can't say that they're "definitely Maudiae". They are certainly what's commonly refered to as "Maudiae type"; but, anything beyond that is just a guess. They could be anything out of a huge number of different hybrids.
Biothanasis, they are very nice and it was a great deal; but, you're never, ever, really going to know the correct name.
Biothanasis, they are very nice and it was a great deal; but, you're never, ever, really going to know the correct name.
JeanLux
Well-Known Member
Thanasis, bravo!!! Very nice flowers and plants! But I a am afraid John is right!!! Jean
PaphMadMan
phytomanic
Despite their differnces they are probably the same cross. Since they were potted together they most likely started out together. And there are perhaps hundreds of crosses of this general type, way too common to ever have a positive ID.
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P-chan
Guest
They're very pretty! As the others have stated, they're noids- but, unless you're planning on showing them or breeding them, it doesn't matter. Just enjoy your pretty new chids!
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biothanasis
Guest
Thank you all! So it is "Maudiae type"!^^
I think I will follow P-chan's advice, as I usually do when there is no ID for a plant of mine...
Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!
So it is "Maudiae type"!^^I think I will follow P-chan's advice, as I usually do when there is no ID for a plant of mine...
Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick
Well-Known Member
Isn't Maudiae just the cross between callosum (or a few barbatum) and lawrencianum?
I realize that there are a zillion parental/clonal/varietal and backcross combinations of those two parental species making for an equally dizzying number of cultivar names, but where would you draw the line between Maudiea "type" versus "straight Maudiea"? I guess if there were other species thrown into the pile.
With all of the zillions of NOID Maudiea pot plants out there it seems hard to justify considering Maudiea as anything distinctive from Maudiea type (although very pretty).
I just read an excerpt from Koopowitz's new book that makes the distinction between Maudiea and Maudiea "type". So by his account there is a difference in terms, and I definitely couldn't make a definitive ID without meticulous records or DNA analysis. It was very interesting history that the original cross (of alba forms) goes back to 1900, but suberbiens was added in not to long after that. Now Maudiea types would include a combination of about 4 species.
But its kind of like picking up a dog from the shelter and arguing if its a purebred mutt or a purebred mutt to me!
John M
Orchid Addict
Rick; Paph. Maudiae is callosum x lawrenceanum....nothing more - nothing less.
The term "Maudiae-type" is very losely applied to any Paph that has a growth habit, a foliage habit/texture/colour and a flower shape/size that looks similar to Maudiae.
The original mass produced, warm growing, pot plant Paph was Maudiae (callosum x lawrenceanum). It produced a lot of seed. That seed germinated well. Those seedlings grew fast with a minimum of deaths and they bloomed fairly quickly after deflasking (as orchids go). The flowers were very attractive and they lasted a long time. Paph Maudiae was produced by the millions to supply the pot plant demand for slipper orchid house plants.
Eventually, many other very similar looking hybrids (with different; but similar looking species in their lineage (such as superbiens, barbatum, ciliolare, sukhakulii, wardii, etc.), came on the scene. Noticing a strong similarity to pure Maudiae (especially when these plants were crossed with Maudiae or one of it's parent species), people called the whole group, "Maudiae-type" to distinguish between them and other popular; but, decidedly different looking groups of Paphs like the "strap-leafed", or, "multifloral" types and the cooler growing, "short, plain-leafed type" that were - and still are - refered to as "Bulldog", "Ashtray" and "Toad" types.
To confuse matters more, this last group is also often simply refered to as "Complex Hybrids", even though that term is valid for any hybrid that has more than just two species in it's background - meaning that many Maudiae-type and many strap-leafed types are also comples hybrids. To use the term "Complex Hybrid" accurately, you would have to say either "Cool Growing Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the "Toad types"), or "Warm Growing Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the "Maudiae types"), or "Strap Leafed (or multifloral), Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the strap leafed types).
A Maudiae-type Paph. is one that has foliage, flowers and a growth habit that is very similar to pure Maudiae; but, it also has genes other than only 50% callosum and 50% lawrenceanum in it's family tree.
QUOTE
"But its kind of like picking up a dog from the shelter and arguing if its a purebred mutt or a purebred mutt to me!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. "Purebred" and "Mutt" are at oposite ends of the dog genetics spectrum. It's impossible to have a "Purebred Mutt". That's like saying that you can have "Dry water". One half of the term cancels the meaning of the other half.
The term "Maudiae-type" is very losely applied to any Paph that has a growth habit, a foliage habit/texture/colour and a flower shape/size that looks similar to Maudiae.
The original mass produced, warm growing, pot plant Paph was Maudiae (callosum x lawrenceanum). It produced a lot of seed. That seed germinated well. Those seedlings grew fast with a minimum of deaths and they bloomed fairly quickly after deflasking (as orchids go). The flowers were very attractive and they lasted a long time. Paph Maudiae was produced by the millions to supply the pot plant demand for slipper orchid house plants.
Eventually, many other very similar looking hybrids (with different; but similar looking species in their lineage (such as superbiens, barbatum, ciliolare, sukhakulii, wardii, etc.), came on the scene. Noticing a strong similarity to pure Maudiae (especially when these plants were crossed with Maudiae or one of it's parent species), people called the whole group, "Maudiae-type" to distinguish between them and other popular; but, decidedly different looking groups of Paphs like the "strap-leafed", or, "multifloral" types and the cooler growing, "short, plain-leafed type" that were - and still are - refered to as "Bulldog", "Ashtray" and "Toad" types.
To confuse matters more, this last group is also often simply refered to as "Complex Hybrids", even though that term is valid for any hybrid that has more than just two species in it's background - meaning that many Maudiae-type and many strap-leafed types are also comples hybrids. To use the term "Complex Hybrid" accurately, you would have to say either "Cool Growing Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the "Toad types"), or "Warm Growing Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the "Maudiae types"), or "Strap Leafed (or multifloral), Complex Hybrid" (to indicate the strap leafed types).
A Maudiae-type Paph. is one that has foliage, flowers and a growth habit that is very similar to pure Maudiae; but, it also has genes other than only 50% callosum and 50% lawrenceanum in it's family tree.
QUOTE
"But its kind of like picking up a dog from the shelter and arguing if its a purebred mutt or a purebred mutt to me!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. "Purebred" and "Mutt" are at oposite ends of the dog genetics spectrum. It's impossible to have a "Purebred Mutt". That's like saying that you can have "Dry water". One half of the term cancels the meaning of the other half.
Rick
Well-Known Member
QUOTE[/B][/U]
"But its kind of like picking up a dog from the shelter and arguing if its a purebred mutt or a purebred mutt to me!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. "Purebred" and "Mutt" are at oposite ends of the dog genetics spectrum. It's impossible to have a "Purebred Mutt". That's like saying that you can have "Dry water". One half of the term cancels the meaning of the other half.[/QUOTE]
The contradiction in terms is my point. After 100+ years of pot plant culture practices as you described, a mutt is a mutt is a mutt. People today breed registered poodles with golden retrievers and call them "pure bred golden doodles", and sell them for real $. But I bet the ones that look about the same from the pound have the same value. Is it really worth worrying about the lineage of a hybrid that's been mass produced for 100 years?
"But its kind of like picking up a dog from the shelter and arguing if its a purebred mutt or a purebred mutt to me!"
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. "Purebred" and "Mutt" are at oposite ends of the dog genetics spectrum. It's impossible to have a "Purebred Mutt". That's like saying that you can have "Dry water". One half of the term cancels the meaning of the other half.[/QUOTE]
The contradiction in terms is my point. After 100+ years of pot plant culture practices as you described, a mutt is a mutt is a mutt. People today breed registered poodles with golden retrievers and call them "pure bred golden doodles", and sell them for real $. But I bet the ones that look about the same from the pound have the same value. Is it really worth worrying about the lineage of a hybrid that's been mass produced for 100 years?
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
I disagree that they are potentially the same cross. Though I am not from Europe, I have noticed that several europeans on forums have purchased two noid paphs in the same pot that are totally different.
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Elena
Guest
Yup, I bought a pot with two distinctly different Noid Paphs in it when I first started growing them and I know that other folks on here did the same in the past.
John M
Orchid Addict
"Is it really worth worrying about the lineage of a hybrid that's been mass produced for 100 years?"
Of course it is...absolutely. Once you stop caring to name things correctly, you lose vast amounts of knowledge about the breeding characteristics and what you can expect to see or bring out in future generations. Plus, in time, as everything becomes of more questionable lineage, you lose the ability to reproduce the same results because you've got the wrong name on the tag and think that you are working with one set of genetics when you are in fact working with something that has been contaminated by extra, unrecorded genes. Just because a flower looks similar to a Maudiae, doesn't mean that it will breed like one. Since pure Maudiae is still a valuable asset in breeding programs, it remains very important to be sure that your breeding stock is labelled correctly and your stud plants laballed as Maudiae are actually pure Maudiae.
BTW: just because some dog breeders cross a golden retriever with a poodle and give it a silly name for marketing purposes, doesn't make it purebred by any stretch of the imagination. Those people are motivated by money and by producing a novel product, they have created themselves a unique market niche. There is no reason why we should follow their lead and screw up the lineage records of our plants, just because some dog breeders looking for a way to make a fast buck do it with their dogs.
Of course it is...absolutely. Once you stop caring to name things correctly, you lose vast amounts of knowledge about the breeding characteristics and what you can expect to see or bring out in future generations. Plus, in time, as everything becomes of more questionable lineage, you lose the ability to reproduce the same results because you've got the wrong name on the tag and think that you are working with one set of genetics when you are in fact working with something that has been contaminated by extra, unrecorded genes. Just because a flower looks similar to a Maudiae, doesn't mean that it will breed like one. Since pure Maudiae is still a valuable asset in breeding programs, it remains very important to be sure that your breeding stock is labelled correctly and your stud plants laballed as Maudiae are actually pure Maudiae.
BTW: just because some dog breeders cross a golden retriever with a poodle and give it a silly name for marketing purposes, doesn't make it purebred by any stretch of the imagination. Those people are motivated by money and by producing a novel product, they have created themselves a unique market niche. There is no reason why we should follow their lead and screw up the lineage records of our plants, just because some dog breeders looking for a way to make a fast buck do it with their dogs.
C
Corbin
Guest
"Since pure Maudiae is still a valuable asset in breeding programs, it remains very important to be sure that your breeding stock is labelled correctly and your stud plants laballed as Maudiae are actually pure Maudiae"
How can you be sure it is a "pure Maudiae" when you can not even be sure if what is labeled as (insert any species name) is in fact a "pure" species?
When I first joined this forum one of my early post was about how to find pure species plants. The answer was basically, you can't.
How can you be sure it is a "pure Maudiae" when you can not even be sure if what is labeled as (insert any species name) is in fact a "pure" species?
When I first joined this forum one of my early post was about how to find pure species plants. The answer was basically, you can't.
PaphMadMan
phytomanic
I can't comment on plant pairs I haven't seen - I wouldn't suggest that a parvi and a barbata that happened to be potted together might be the same cross - but in this case the 2 flowers and plants are very similar in appearance, certainly only a small fraction of the variation that could be expected in a mass market Maudiae-type. The simplest and most likely explanation is they came as seedlings from the same batch. Since they are NOIDs you can go ahead and believe they are completely unrelated if you like, but it doesn't make it true.
John M
Orchid Addict
How can you be sure it is a "pure Maudiae" when you can not even be sure if what is labeled as (insert any species name) is in fact a "pure" species?
You can't be absolutely sure because who knows what the previous owners of the plant or it's ancestors did with regard to labelling. However, at the very least, it is best to be familiar with what you're buying and to the best of your ability, determine that it is properly labelled. After that, be sure that you keep accurate records. That means, don't lose labels that did come with the plants and don't guess the name for plants that don't have a label. In a perfect world (which I realize does not exist!), if everyone kept such accurate records, no plants would ever become NOIDs with questionable ancestry.
When I first joined this forum one of my early post was about how to find pure species plants. The answer was basically, you can't. In some cases, that is true; but, in many cases, it is not. As long as you are VERY well educated on a particular species and all it's variations, you can be fairly certain that you are looking at a pure species or not. However, the final word is for you to send a flower and lots of photographs of the foliage to a taxanomic authority for professional identification.
You can't be absolutely sure because who knows what the previous owners of the plant or it's ancestors did with regard to labelling. However, at the very least, it is best to be familiar with what you're buying and to the best of your ability, determine that it is properly labelled. After that, be sure that you keep accurate records. That means, don't lose labels that did come with the plants and don't guess the name for plants that don't have a label. In a perfect world (which I realize does not exist!), if everyone kept such accurate records, no plants would ever become NOIDs with questionable ancestry.
When I first joined this forum one of my early post was about how to find pure species plants. The answer was basically, you can't. In some cases, that is true; but, in many cases, it is not. As long as you are VERY well educated on a particular species and all it's variations, you can be fairly certain that you are looking at a pure species or not. However, the final word is for you to send a flower and lots of photographs of the foliage to a taxanomic authority for professional identification.
D
Damas
Guest
I don't want to interfer in anything but the second paph looks to me like true lawrenceanum: foliage colors and mottling, staminoid, etc. Of course, you can not say it's a selected clone, but still, it looks lawrenceanum to me
B
biothanasis
Guest
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