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Paph delenatii simi-alba

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gonewild

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What constitutes a simi-alba form?

Dr. Averyanov showed slides of Vietnamese species in his talk at the Paph Guild meeting in January. When he showed pictures of delenatii he had one he refereed to as simi-alba. If I remember correctly it looked like it had only a very pale rose blush on the pouch and stamenoid.

Would this delenatii seedling be considered simi-alba?

 

slippertalker

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Usually the term semi-alba refers to a plant with white sepals and petals with a colored lip. Paph delenatii typically has blush pink sepals and petals with a pinkish lip. The photo looks close to what a semi-alba should be.....Don't know how unusual it is.
 

Roth

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Picture of delenatii semialba coming soon, mine is about to open. The plant and flower stem are completely green, the staminode is white and yellow, the petals pure white, only the pouch has a very light pink color, but not like the typical delenatii at all. It is extremely rare compared to the regular albino delenatii.
 
O

ORG

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The plant shown by Leonid is nothing more than a pale clone of Paph. delenatii.
The name semi-alba is not defined and so it is used in different manner.
Paph. delenatii semialba is only a tradename and nothing more.
But there some clones exist which has the staminode of forma albinum, white petals and sepals and a rose coloured lip. These were named in trade also semialba but were never described officially.
Here an example of this very rare clone. When this clone flowered it was very hot and so the shape of the flower was not so good.



Best greetings

Olaf
 

gonewild

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ORG said:
The plant shown by Leonid is nothing more than a pale clone of Paph. delenatii.
The name semi-alba is not defined and so it is used in different manner.
Paph. delenatii semialba is only a tradename and nothing more.
But there some clones exist which has the staminode of forma albinum, white petals and sepals and a rose coloured lip. These were named in trade also semialba but were never described officially.
Here an example of this very rare clone. When this clone flowered it was very hot and so the shape of the flower was not so good.

Best greetings

Olaf
Thanks for the explanation about the term "simi-alba" being a trade (horticultural) descriptive name. Is the form you speak of and show the picture of a wild collected form or was it selected from hybridization?
 
O

ORG

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The plant is cultivated in Taiwan and I could make a picture of a part cultivated in Europe.
Normally the plants made from seed are very unique and so I think it was a wild collected plant, but many years in culture now.

Best greetings

Olaf
 

Hien

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ORG said:
The plant is cultivated in Taiwan and I could make a picture of a part cultivated in Europe.
Normally the plants made from seed are very unique and so I think it was a wild collected plant, but many years in culture now.

Best greetings

Olaf
Hi Olaf

Can you cross the alba delenatii & the regular pink delenatii and hope that the seedlings come out with all sort of variations in between the two parents?
-very close to the pink delenatii
-very close to the white
-white pouch with light pink petal & red staminode
-pink pouch with white petal & yellow staminode
& also the one similar to your picture?
 

Roth

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Hien said:
Hi Olaf

Can you cross the alba delenatii & the regular pink delenatii and hope that the seedlings come out with all sort of variations in between the two parents?
-very close to the pink delenatii
-very close to the white
-white pouch with light pink petal & red staminode
-pink pouch with white petal & yellow staminode
& also the one similar to your picture?
Semialba x regular delenatii gives regular delenatii
Dunkel x regular delenatii gives regular delenatii.

Both alba, semialba and dunkel are recessive.
 
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ORG

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Dear Sanderianum,
I think you are right. It would be better to make a selfing. But I am not the owner of the plant. Iwill ask for the possibility.

Best greetings

Olaf
 

slippertalker

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Sanderianum said:
Semialba x regular delenatii gives regular delenatii
Dunkel x regular delenatii gives regular delenatii.

Both alba, semialba and dunkel are recessive.
You could, however make those crosses, then sib cross the progeny to produce a percentage of plants with the recessive characteristics. This is done quite commonly with albinistic paphs to produce improved forms.
 
D

DavidH

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Exactly, this is what hybridizers are doing to improve form.

Remember the old recessive gene lesson from school?

Plant A: X X
Plant B: X Y (semi-alba)

= XX XY XY XX (50% with recessive characteristics)

At this point, however, it's tough to know which of those plants are the XY (sometimes with pale color you can tell).

Plant A: X Y
Plant B: X Y

= XX XY XY YY (25% will be alba)

In real life, however, it's not always as simple as the logic above but it's what a lot of hybridizers try to do.
 
P

paphiness

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paph color genetics

DavidH's example above is correct.

In his example, X represents the dominant color allele (i.e., version of a gene), and Y represents the recessive color allele.

XX = expresses regular color in the flower
XY = expresses regular color in the flower, but is a carrier of the recessive color allele (usually indistinguishable from XX)
YY = carries only recessive color allele, and expresses recessive color

If you'd like to find out more about how this works in Paphs (and humans), you can check out the following link (and follow through the series):

http://www.paphinessorchids.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=63

"Dominant" and "recessive" are relative terms. One term only makes sense in the context of the other. Dominant means that whatever trait you see shows up phenotypically (i.e., you can actually see it) IN THE PRESENCE OF a recessive allele. Recessive means that the trait is masked IN THE PRESENCE OF a dominant allele.

"Semi-alba" is a confusing term, unfortunately. While it may have a meaning phenotypically (e.g., a plant has lighter than normal color), it also could be interpreted to imply that the plant's genetic composition (genotype) is XY. In other words it is "semi" alba because half of its genetic complement for this color gene is the albinistic form.
 
L

lienluu

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DavidH said:
Exactly, this is what hybridizers are doing to improve form.

Remember the old recessive gene lesson from school?

Plant A: X X
Plant B: X Y (semi-alba)

= XX XY XY XX (50% with recessive characteristics)

At this point, however, it's tough to know which of those plants are the XY (sometimes with pale color you can tell).

Plant A: X Y
Plant B: X Y

= XX XY XY YY (25% will be alba)

In real life, however, it's not always as simple as the logic above but it's what a lot of hybridizers try to do.

You are starting however, with one normal parent and one heterozygous parent. Which isn't the best way to go, better to start with a homozygous semi-album. It would also be difficult if not impossible to find a plant out there that is heterzyous semi-album. To take it from start to finish, you would have:

Normal: S S
Semi-alba: s s

Crossing these two will give you all Ss Ss, normal coloured flowers that carry a gene for semi-albinism.

From there, self pollinate or do a sib cross and you will get

SS, Ss and ss. With ss being your desired homozygous semi-album. It would be impossible, as you said earlier, to differentiate between the SS and Ss population though.
 
M

micranthum

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I want to share with you the picture of my "true" delenatii semi-alba. This is an very interesting plant, all the plant is like an alba. No colour under the leaf, only a few points on the flower stem.

Unfortunatly I had to struggle with spider mites these last months, so one petal was a deformed.

Enjoy!
 

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Ernie

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Thanks for the explanation about the term "simi-alba" being a trade (horticultural) descriptive name. Is the form you speak of and show the picture of a wild collected form or was it selected from hybridization?
Lance,

Might I politely inquire as to your insistance on spelling it "simi-alba"? Firstly, one would expect "semi" as in "partly". Secondly, gender matching issues in latin and greek match album with Paphiopedilum and alba with Cattleya for instance.

Olaf, that's a sweet thing!

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
 

gonewild

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Lance,

Might I politely inquire as to your insistance on spelling it "simi-alba"? Firstly, one would expect "semi" as in "partly". Secondly, gender matching issues in latin and greek match album with Paphiopedilum and alba with Cattleya for instance.

Olaf, that's a sweet thing!

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
I was not aware that I was insisting on spelling it "simi-alba"
But it seems everyone that responded also spelled it that way.
I will be happy to spell it anyway that is correct.
How about we change it to "sorta alba"?
 

paphioboy

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this is interesting... Don't you just love orchid genetics..?:poke: hehe.. By the way, is it only albinism in paphs that follow the simple Mendellian genetics, or doe it also apply for albinism in other orchids as well? If I'm not mistaken, albinism in catts are more complicated as multiple genes control the semi-alba/alba characteristic... Anybody have any idea? Thanks in advance... :)
 
E

Ernie

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I was not aware that I was insisting on spelling it "simi-alba"
But it seems everyone that responded also spelled it that way.
I will be happy to spell it anyway that is correct.
How about we change it to "sorta alba"?
:) No I just got the impression it was from some specific reference or source. Like Olaf said, it isn't a taxonomically recognized combination, but if it were, I believe it would correctly be semi-album? With the whole deal being Paphiopedilum delenatii forma semi-album. I'm trying to keep these little details straight for my own knowledge- not be the epithet police. :)

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
 
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Eric Muehlbauer

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Personally, I think the terms "heterozygous" and "homozygous" are the most informative descriptions that can be used for inherited traits, at least those that fall along more or less dominant-recessive lines. Take care, Eric
 

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