P villosums; what's everybodies opinons?

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SlipperKing

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I've had these two Paph villosums for +/-5yrs and I've been skeptical about the authenticity of the one on the right. But now, I'm wondering about both! The villosum on the left was awarded an AM in 1987. The clonel name is 'Anne' It also got a CCM at the same time. What I know and you all can't see is the ovaries. They're suppose to be villos or "hairy", they're not. Very short bristled hairs are on both ovaries. Are there varies with short hairs or are these most likely hybrids?



Close ups; 'Anne'


And 'CC'


The petals on both flowers have ruffled upper edges too. Is this a trait of villosum?
 

rdlsreno

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I think it is a Paph. Lathmianum (villosum x spicerianum). If you look at the staminode it has a greenish center and it is somewhat angular which spicerianum give also the ruffling on the petals is another trait that spicerianum gives of to its progenies.

Ramon:)
 

Yoyo_Jo

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I love them! :clap: They do remind me of a spiceranium hybrid that I have,

Paph. (Yerba Buena x Golden Days) x spicerianum:



 

Rick

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I just dug out the Averyanov article in 3rd quarter 07 OD (for looking up the barbigerum stuff). There is a variable variety of Villosum called fusco-roseum that are pretty similar to your flowers. Undulating petal edges too.

There is also a fusco-viride that is also pretty close, but generally greener.

I can perceive of a cross of the two varieties to produce exactly like what you have.

Shoot there is a pic of a var. annamense thats pretty close too.

There is so much variation in villosum that I can't see how there are more than 20 distinct species of paphs total.
 

SlipperKing

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The 2nd villosum (darker one) has the var. annamense on the tag. I have 3rd about to open, it looks very green at the moment. I'll post it on this thread after it opens
 

Rick

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Do you have access to the OD article? Looks to me like wild villosum is just about as variable as a show house of hybrid Catts:poke:
 

Roy

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I thought so too at first Roy. But you gotta see the pics in the OD article!!
Rick, I don't access to the books you refer too but I think if you look at the plants in this thread, they are clearly spicerianum in leaf and habit.
I grow villosum myself and over many years of observing Paphs, their growth habit is nothing like the ones in the pics.
The Paph villosums I have and see here are up right with broadish leaves and are strong looking plants. These resemble the P.spicerianums I have and see, one particularly clone sold as spicerianum giganteum, without the label looks exactly like these plants.

Rick, does the OD describe the plants in pics as "wild collected plants" or plants raised from seed ??
 

Roth

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Villosum has highly variable leaf shape and size, roughly the plants can look like a henryanum (and same plant size, if not smaller, some villosum are in the 10-15cm leafspan, with quite large 8-10 cm blooms), up to massive stuff with pointed leaves reminiscent of a big phrag Sorcerer's Apprentice. One of the three best types anywhere I can think of actually comes from Son La province, has floppy soft leaves, even when cultivated for long time, and always look like a crappy underwatered plant. Villosum is highly variable, breed readily, and I suspect there are more species than just villosum and its variety annamense.

Villosum can have absolutely perfect flat flowers, short hairs on the ovary, no hairs, very large hairs. I have seen a couple thousands plants collected in Kontum, and the flowers were highly variable in color, shape, and size. The plants looked extremely similar on the other side.

On the bleak side, in India and in Viet Nam, I know some pot plant hybrids escaped long time ago. The villosum from Ba Vi in Viet Nam grow in an area that was a former city with church, and this type seems to be corrupted by Leeanum or insigne...
 

Rick

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Rick, I don't access to the books you refer too but I think if you look at the plants in this thread, they are clearly spicerianum in leaf and habit.
I grow villosum myself and over many years of observing Paphs, their growth habit is nothing like the ones in the pics.
The Paph villosums I have and see here are up right with broadish leaves and are strong looking plants. These resemble the P.spicerianums I have and see, one particularly clone sold as spicerianum giganteum, without the label looks exactly like these plants.

Rick, does the OD describe the plants in pics as "wild collected plants" or plants raised from seed ??
The photos are in situ or wild collected as far as I can tell from the text. The point of Averyanovs articles are based on wild observed or collected materials. He has range descriptions of the forms too.
 

Roy

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Sanderianum, thank you for your descriptions of the various forms of villosum but given those descriptions, to my mind, you are actually describing a series of NEW species. From the description of some, there are many Paphs that have been declared stand alone species for much less. Has there been any formal Taxanomic work done on these plants to check ????
As Rick points out Averyanovs articles support your comments but I believe that a form process of identification is required.
 

Rick

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Sanderianum, thank you for your descriptions of the various forms of villosum but given those descriptions, to my mind, you are actually describing a series of NEW species. From the description of some, there are many Paphs that have been declared stand alone species for much less. Has there been any formal Taxanomic work done on these plants to check ????
As Rick points out Averyanovs articles support your comments but I believe that a form process of identification is required.
Averyanov is a taxonomist as you can see he described two of the recent varieties.
Averyanov sites taxonomic description articles and dates of:
var. annamense Rolfe., 1907
var. boxallii Pfitzer., 1903
var. fusco-roseum Averyanov., 2002
var. fusco-viride Averyanov., 2002
But the variation within the varieties of both flower and plant habit is pretty big for all 4 varieties. In corroboration with Sanderianum's description the pictures in Averyanov's article shows a typical huge, floppy villosum in a tree compared to a villosum growing on a rocky stream bluff that looks more like a spicerianum in plant habit. The plant of fusco-roseum could be a dead ringer for gratrixianum. Its one huge smeary mess.
 

Roy

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Rick, it sounds by that it certainly is a mess. It just seems to me that there is too much variation within the species to be just varieties or formas.
Thanks for the info.
 

Rick

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You would think so, but there's allot more variation in Homo sapiens, and you don't hear to much of dividing them up.

But at least back to plant models, there is an inherent problem with population work with rain forest species in that accessibility is generally so poor that small samples of potentially wide ranging taxa are sampled and described as a species. Then the next year they jump over to the other side of a mountain and find a plant with a few extra spots and call it a different species, and so on and on. So I am amazed when something like callosum, lawrencianum, and barbatum are called different species when you have the villosum example to compare it too.

I guess thats when you need to start looking at chromosome number and DNA analysis. Because you can get parallel evolution trends where taxa can look almost identical on the outside, but completely different on the inside. Emerald tree boas and Green tree pythons are like this. Almost identical looking, but from 2 different continents. One is live bearing and the other lays eggs. You couldn't even hybridize them if you tried.
 

SlipperKing

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OK, I finally took two pics of the villosum that I promised some time back. It still is not fully open and has two problems, skewed pouch and a deformed staminode Also this flower is much smaller then the two already posted.

Natural light


Flash


Roy, as you can tell, the growths are upright in the background.

P.S. unusual colored pouch wouldn't you say? Also the straight object in the background is another flower forming.:)
 

Roy

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They're the more 'typical' villosums we see over here. I comparison to the first two, these lack the "spicerianum" crimson stripe up the centre of the dorsal.
This why I think / thought the first two were "Lathamianum". That stripe is unique in spicerianum hybrids and comes through in flowers far removed from the species. Unless someone can indicate what other Paph emparts that crimson stripe, I accept the previous posts with my own opinion. the pouch color I accept as variable, that is common.
 

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