New to breeding

[practicallyostensible]

Well, I think that I am finally ready to try and take the leap into hybridization and propagation. I was wondering if anyone had some recommendations for internet and print sources to get me started. Thanks all!

 

[Marco]

here's a link to Uri's website http://baruk1.club.fr/baruk1/home/invitro-ang.htm

 

[Roy]

If I can add my few cents worth, DON'T make crosses for the heck of it. Make a responsible cross that you stand a chance of getting quality blooms from. Too many people start out doing a cross to see if they can do it. Its a waste of time and money. Depending on the type of Paph/ Phrag whatever you grow, use the best plants you have to breed with OR beg or borrow some pollen from another grower to use on your best plant. With Paphs, there will always be the majority sellers, the really good ones are few but are well worth the wait. Another point is to wait till the flower to hold the pod is fully open and set, maybe a week after opening. The same goes for the flower of the pollen donor. ( saved pollen from a previous years flower can be used but the likelyhood of not taking is much higher. )

 

[NYEric]

I dont know about that for Phrags like besseae.

 

[Roy]

Phrag besseae is slightly different. As we have seen examples of on this forum, the quality varies. It is not 'always' the best clones produce the best progeny but its a darn good starting place. Phrag besseae used with similar style flowers light schlimii, Jason Fischer, Saint ouen etc produces great flowers when a 'good' besseae is used, an average one produces average progent. The comparisons are there for all to see. What ever you wish to breed with, the same rule applies, use the best possible.

 

[Roy]

More to the besseae as an observation, if a besseae is bred with any of the 'long petal' type phrags, the apparent intent is to introduce the color of besseae. This of course has been successful and maybe the quality of the besseae shape is less important but from my experience the benefit of using good shape as well is definitely a benefit.

 

[slippertalker]

I agree with Roy, in that breeding is not worth the effort unless you 1) have a good idea of the goals of the cross, or future crosses 2) use the absolute best clones possible 3) understand the genetics of the parents. If you haphazardly just make crosses with mediocre parents you are just wasting your time, and the results will most likely be poor.

 

[practicallyostensible]

I agree with Roy, in that breeding is not worth the effort unless you 1) have a good idea of the goals of the cross, or future crosses 2) use the absolute best clones possible 3) understand the genetics of the parents. If you haphazardly just make crosses with mediocre parents you are just wasting your time, and the results will most likely be poor.

It irks me a little bit that there seems to be some rampant assumption that I (or anyone that is new to breeding) would just haphazardly jump into the process. Of course I have a list of crosses that I want to take a stab at, and I make a earnest attempt to NEVER buy mediocre plants, much less ones that I am going to take the time to propagate or cross. I've been growing for awhile now and I am interested in taking that next leap and honestly, I feel like I shouldn't need to justify my reasoning. I may not be as knowledgeable as the professionals in the orchid growing business, or many of the individuals on this forum, but everyone has to start somewhere.

 

[kentuckiense]

It irks me a little bit that there seems to be some rampant assumption that I (or anyone that is new to breeding) would just haphazardly jump into the process. Of course I have a list of crosses that I want to take a stab at, and I make a earnest attempt to NEVER buy mediocre plants, much less ones that I am going to take the time to propagate or cross. I've been growing for awhile now and I am interested in taking that next leap and honestly, I feel like I shouldn't need to justify my reasoning. I may not be as knowledgeable as the professionals in the orchid growing business, or many of the individuals on this forum, but everyone has to start somewhere.

I agree with this. If I want to give plant Paph breeding a try, why can't I use my two (hypothetical) Home Depot NOIDs? It's about the learning experience. Not all of us give a damn about the "best" parents. It's about learning the process and observing.

 

[Heather]

I agree with this. If I want to give plant Paph breeding a try, why can't I use my two (hypothetical) Home Depot NOIDs? It's about the learning experience. Not all of us give a damn about the "best" parents. It's about learning the process and observing.

Agreed.
Early on, I selfed a nice wallisii because I could. I then realized I had not the patience needed for that sort of business so I eventually cut the spike/pod. I learned a lot from that experience and hence my cross does not exist. Had I not tried it, I would not have learned it was not for me.

However, I learned how to pollinate, what to or to not pollinate, and why, and what a capsule looks like and how long it takes....it was a worthwhile experience for sure!

 

[Kyle]

In my opinion, the best argument for using the best available parents is that it takes the same effort and expenses to raise/flask offspring from superior parents as it does to raise the seedlings from crappy offspring.

That said one persons best available might not be up to par with another persons best available. So, use your best available. Don't be afraid to ask for pollen.

Another thought is, once its all said and done, you might end up with hundreds of seedlings. Its alot easier to get rid of seedlings from two awarded parents then it is trying to unload hundreds of seedlings from two crappy flowers.

I don't make crosses to make money or with the goal of retiring early, but I do consider the potential of a cross to sell. After all, I don't want every seedling, one or two of the nicest ones will do. The rest have to end up somewhere.

 

[gore42]

Also in Agreement.

Actually, I disagree about the need to breed only the finest "award quality" plants (at least, depending on your goals). If you really care about awardability, or if you're making a commercial venture, or if you're breeding towards a particular type of hybrid, there is undoubtedly merit to Slippertalker's comments.

Even in the propagation of species, it may be very important for those who are commercially minded to use only "Award Quality" parents. However, it is equally (or perhaps more) importatant to propagate species that are not quite as perfect in the eye of orchid judges, in order to maintain variety in the forms of the blooms that are available to collectors, and to increase the amount of variation in the gene pool. After all, there is a good chance that many of the orchids that we love will go extinct in the wild during the next century, due to development or over collection (or both) or a host of other reasons. It would be a pity if all of the genetic variation were bred out out of these species and then lost forever. On this ground, I'm in favor of breeding ANY species that happens to bloom (even if they are only for my personal collection, and not for sale).

Just my $0.02


As Ever,
Matthew Gore

Oh, and if you're still looking for a bit of flasking info, here are a few links I've collected, you may have already found them yourself :

http://www.ceiba.org/documents/CFTCpropman.pdf
from: http://www.ceiba.org/propagation.htm

http://members.cox.net/lmlauman/osp/html/flasking1.html
(and look around at the other info at the OSP)

http://www.orchidsource.com/GB_seed_manual.html

http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/science/micropropagation/bgmnews.html

 

[Roy]

Julia, please dont get me wrong. I have taught many growers how to breed with many orchid genera. The first thing they do is make a cross to see if they can get it right. They of course use their favorite plants, which are far from anything anyone else would use. When eventually they get the seedlings back and flower them, the best of the results is rubbish. Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested. Heather, the pod you set was worth good money just to sell the pod. Kyle is spot on. If you wish to venture into breeding orchids, all I wished to express is, dont rush in like many do. Carefully concider what you would like to achieve from the cross and browse the net to see if the same or similar crossings have been done and look at the results. I do not question your knowledge, its my advice to prevent a lot of wasted time and money for poor results. Gore42 is also spot on with the species angle, they will always be a good bet to preferably 'outcross' or self, awarded clones are definitely not a requirement. Awarded hybrids are not always the best breeders also. Many Awarded plants have come from just good 'show bench' clones mated.

 

[practicallyostensible]

Julia, please dont get me wrong. I have taught many growers how to breed with many orchid genera. The first thing they do is make a cross to see if they can get it right. They of course use their favorite plants, which are far from anything anyone else would use. When eventually they get the seedlings back and flower them, the best of the results is rubbish. Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested. Heather, the pod you set was worth good money just to sell the pod. Kyle is spot on. If you wish to venture into breeding orchids, all I wished to express is, dont rush in like many do. Carefully concider what you would like to achieve from the cross and browse the net to see if the same or similar crossings have been done and look at the results. I do not question your knowledge, its my advice to prevent a lot of wasted time and money for poor results.

No offence taken, I was just a little thrown off with those two responses. I appreciate your input, I just didn't want another ten responses reiterating slippertalker's sentiments, especially considering the amount of careful consideration and research I have put into the matter.

 

[Roy]

No problem, let us know how you go. Good luck.

 

[kentuckiense]

Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested.

Just because I've never purchase NOIDs from Home Depot, which would've been severely overpriced anyway ($30-40?), does not mean that I have plenty of money to blow. Thanks for your consideration, though.

 

[littlefrog]

Of course when we see a question about people wanting to make their first cross, we usually jump to the conclusion that they really shouldn't... I'm not saying it is right, but I'm as guilty as anybody. Usually people who ask me about this really need to do their homework first. Obviously Julia has, and I think asking here is a good idea, there is a lot of information to be had.

Now, for my perspective as 'orchid judge', not that this is any more valid than anybody else's. If you are interested in awards, you need to use quality parents. This should be obvious, yes? However, you can also make a big splash by using combinations that nobody else has thought of, or combinations that many people have thought of but didn't want to assume the risk of making the cross. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a really interesting plant and thought to myself 'I wouldn't have made this cross in a million years, bravo!'.

For my money, if I were making my first crosses I would remake some classic crosses. That would depend on the plants available for stud, of course. For example, in primary hybrids there are a number of crosses made 100 years ago that would really benefit from being remade with even the most mediocre of modern line bred species. As an example of what can happen, look at Maudiae. This has been remade several times in the last few decades with excellent results. There are a lot of advantages to remaking old crosses. The first is that you know what to expect, and you can learn a lot about what your particular set of parent plants can contribute to any changes from the 'norm'. Second, you shouldn't have any trouble selling or giving away your extras. Third, it really needs to be done. I'd love to see Phrag. Mem. Dick Clements, Eric Young, Hanne Popow, etc, remade with the best modern besseae. I'd buy the best of those, because I'd like to use them to remake the next generation...

 

[Hien]

I like both Kyle & Matt's answers.
You probably think I am the craziest person on earth.
last year, I put:
-a Laelia-cattleya pollen on the oncidium intergeneric.(and reversed cross)
-a dendrobium pollen on a phalaenopsis. The phalaenopsis rejects it right away.
-a paph pollen on a phrag
the Lc actually produces a pod but no germination. Same with the paph-phrag pod.
I did not used any choice parents, just the ones I got from the show-sale.
I figure they breed them enough to clone and sell them, so they are good enough for me for now.

 

[kentuckiense]

the Lc actually produces a pod but no germination. Same with the paph-phrag pod.

Sounds like something along the lines of apomixis. Although, apomixis results in reproduction (viable seeds). Probably some similar mechanisms going on, though.

 

[Rick]

I would also check out Troy Meyers website. Meyers Conservatory.

which I think is troymeyers.com