K-Lite Testers: What do you grow, and have you made any observations?

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The Mutant said:
My tap water has rather low dH-levels, 2.9 - 3.1, but pretty high pH-levels, 7.8 - 8.4. Conductivity are 15 - 17 mSm (which is pretty low for tap water I've heard).

Oh, BTW, what does TDS stand for?
Click to expand...

TDS stands for total dissolved solids (salts).

converting your dH and conductivity levels to what I use in TN, your hardness is 53.5 mg/L as CaCO3, which is soft by EPA standards. But double check your conductivity units. If it really is mSm and not micro (uSm) then your conductivity is about 16000 uSm. For comparison my well water straight up has a conductivity of maybe 600 - 800uSm. And I dilute my well water for final conductivity around 50-80 uSm.

Also the pH of around 8.0 with that low hardness could indicate a fairly high alkalinity (which is the big driver for ammonia, rather than nitrate use in K lite). Do you have an alkalinity value?

Also have you been addling lime or other high carbonate materials to your potting mix?

To have a low hardness and high conductivity would indicate a high amount of monvalent (sodium or potassium) salt in your system.

Do you use a water softener at your house?

Really need to get a better handle on your water chemistry.
 
Actually just caught that you conductivity units are as mS per meter instead of centimeter as I use in US.

So you divide by 100 to get to cm

So your conductivity is about 160 uScm, which is just fine and representative of soft water.

So the next question is are you using any pot ammendments?
 
Rick said:
TDS stands for total dissolved solids (salts).

converting your dH and conductivity levels to what I use in TN, your hardness is 53.5 mg/L as CaCO3, which is soft by EPA standards. But double check your conductivity units. If it really is mSm and not micro (uSm) then your conductivity is about 16000 uSm. For comparison my well water straight up has a conductivity of maybe 600 - 800uSm. And I dilute my well water for final conductivity around 50-80 uSm.

Also the pH of around 8.0 with that low hardness could indicate a fairly high alkalinity (which is the big driver for ammonia, rather than nitrate use in K lite). Do you have an alkalinity value?

Also have you been addling lime or other high carbonate materials to your potting mix?

To have a low hardness and high conductivity would indicate a high amount of monvalent (sodium or potassium) salt in your system.

Do you use a water softener at your house?

Really need to get a better handle on your water chemistry.
Click to expand...
Rick said:
Actually just caught that you conductivity units are as mS per meter instead of centimeter as I use in US.

So you divide by 100 to get to cm

So your conductivity is about 160 uScm, which is just fine and representative of soft water.

So the next question is are you using any pot ammendments?
Click to expand...
It's really hard with all these different units! Especially for someone like me with no knowledge of chemistry and other fun things like that. ;)

I'm reading on the website about our water quality, and it says that they add something, sodium hydroxide, I don't know if that's the correct term, to increase the pH-levels.

What's an alkalinity value (yup, you're talking to newbie here)? I don't have any figures for that one I'm afraid. I think I could call the city hall and ask tomorrow though.

In my own mix I use, bark (pine), sphagnum, and perlite, but most of my Paphs are still in the substrate they came in which is plain bark (don't kow which kind though). Lime? Do you mean like the fruit (yes, I'm very tired now) or as in limestone/crushed oyster shells? I use crushed oyster shells in the substrate for my calcicolous Paphs, but no other.

We don't need a water softener, this is the communal tap water I'm using and it's soft enough already. ;)
 
The Mutant said:
I'm reading on the website about our water quality, and it says that they add something, sodium hydroxide, I don't know if that's the correct term, to increase the pH-levels.

What's an alkalinity value (yup, you're talking to newbie here)? I don't have any figures for that one I'm afraid. I think I could call the city hall and ask tomorrow though.

In my own mix I use, bark (pine), sphagnum, and perlite, but most of my Paphs are still in the substrate they came in which is plain bark (don't kow which kind though). Lime? Do you mean like the fruit (yes, I'm very tired now) or as in limestone/crushed oyster shells? I use crushed oyster shells in the substrate for my calcicolous Paphs, but no other.

We don't need a water softener, this is the communal tap water I'm using and it's soft enough already. ;)
Click to expand...

After figuring out your units for conductivity, this water is soflt and low salt. Adding sodium hydroxide (caustic) is a fast way to raise pH, but my be pushing the alkalinity up. Try letting the water stand or aerate with an aquarium pump for a day or so and see if the pH drops.

You shouldn't need to add the crushed oyster shell or other lime products when using K lite.

Given the very short time frames over which you are seeing problems, I think you have something more fundamental in your culture going on. Temp fluctuations, low humidity, and/or lighting limitations.
 
Brabantia, please explain "ionic species". I understand the concept of osmosis, but I don't see exactly how that applies to fertilizing roots that
are already totally soaked with water. Wouldn't some components of the
fertilizer be lost in the balancing process?

Please understand that I have a PhD in Renaissance English Literature and a limited understanding of chemistry beyond the most basic level.
Forgive my ignorance.
 
Brabantia said:
@abax:
Ionic species can enter the root already impregnate with water by the osmosis phenomenon. Osmosis is a natural phenomenon that creates a balance (isotonicity) in pressure between liquids and solutes inside and outside the cell. Water and ionic solutes will pass in and out of cell walls until an equilibrium is reached and the level of solutes in the water surrounding the cell is the same as the level of solutes in the cell. When the water surrounding the roots disappears (the roots are drying) salts concentration in the cell (in the root) increase. This is the reason why the roots can be burned when this concentration increase at to hight values.
Click to expand...

True enough, but you are ignoring that the rate of permeation is highly dependent upon the concentration at the membrane.

If the velamen is saturated with water, and the fertilizer solution "zooms by" as it does through most media, then the amount that penetrates that saturated velamen will be quite low, and the amount penetrating the cell membranes beneath will be minimal.

Add to that the fertilizer dilution factors many of us use, and the amount making it to the plant is minuscule, making Angela's "why bother" entirely appropriate.
 
Ray, where does this put the advice we usually see of watering with plain water then fertilizer water ie: not fertilizing dry roots? Is that wrong? I'm a light fertilizer to begin with and I'm concerned that perhaps my approach is wrong.
 
If this is a potential problem, then why not start to add fertilizer with every watering? I have done it for a couple of years now with excellent results growth-wise. Normally approx 400ppm TDS (should be some 40-50ppm N). I turn off the fertilizing regime in winter though to leach out excess. My water is mainly rain water these days, and never hard/alkaline. I have never had burnt leaf-tips or roots. even with phragmipediums like bessae, kovachii and schlimii.
Btw. been using K-lite for almost a year now. No negative effects yet, except for (perhaps) too vigorous growth?:D
Since my composts (for calcicolous paphs/phrags) are mainly composed of limestone, marble etc, I would have liked some more ammonia/urea in the mix though.
 
Personally, I think the "water first, before fertilizing" guidance is very old, and based up the practice of feeding very infrequently, but with strong solutions.

Back when I was asked to feed the orchids at the "public greenhouses in Piedmont Park" (Atlanta Botanical Gardens) - almost 40 years ago - feeding was roughly monthly, and was done with solutions that were bright blue coming from the hose, suggesting a very high concentration. I don't recall the dilution, but I'd bet it was in the 300-400 ppm N area, with a TDS in the multiple-thousands. With that regimen, one absolutely HAD TO water first.

Using the 40-50 ppm N Bjorn and I agree on now, it's not only unnecessary, but counter-productive.
 
When I water before fertilizing I do it on the weekend. That lets me water on Saturday morning, a good flush. Then I turn my fans up, I have fans under my benches that allow air under the pots. Then I come back on Sunday afternoon and fertilize everything. So the pots are not still saturated. The bark is just moist. Then I turn the fans underneath off if I don't need them. I am not usually fertilizing at 50 ppm N, usually higher, thus the reason I flush first. Sometimes is I do use around 50 or so ppm then I skip the flush. If I did feed that low and water right before I fertilized then obviously the plants would not be getting that much fert. I spoke with Sam from Orchid Inn, I think everyone can agree that he grows some awesome slippers. He said this is what he does every watering every week. When I used other fertilizers, same amount of fert, same flush, same temp, same water, same mix, same light. No problem, plants were nice green, blooming great. But I had to rotate between cal nitrate, mag sulfate and fert. I do realize K can get in the way of uptake of cal, mag, ect. The logic is right, even if I don't believe it had to be that low, but is a good Idea. I figured it would allow the plants to take up more cal/mag and still supply nitrogen. So that is why I tried it, to simplify things. Not because I was having problems before but to cut steps out.
 
abax said:
Brabantia, please explain "ionic species". I understand the concept of osmosis, but I don't see exactly how that applies to fertilizing roots that
are already totally soaked with water. Wouldn't some components of the
fertilizer be lost in the balancing process?

Please understand that I have a PhD in Renaissance English Literature and a limited understanding of chemistry beyond the most basic level.
Forgive my ignorance.
Click to expand...
Ionic species are the fertilyser constituents like, nitrate (NO3-), potassium (K+), phosphate (PO4---), Calcium (Ca++), Magnesium (Mg++) and the micro-elements Iron (Fe+++), Zinc (Zn++) and so one. In solution all these species are in ionic form, (they are dissociate) and carrying positive or negative charges which are in equal quantities in the solution (the solution is electrically neutral).
About the transfer of ionic species in the roots: indeed there is a limit with the quantity of ionic species which can be absorbed by the plant. This is why there is no reason to increase the quantity of fertilyser distributed beyond a certain value. This quantity of fertilyser to be solubilized can be evaluated by measuring the ionic species remaining (not fixed by the roots) one or two days after the fertilyser distribution. One can have an image of this quantity by percolating a modest amount of pure water through the substrate and measuring the electric conductibility of the solution obtained. More higher the conductibility is larger is the quantity of manure which was not consumed. This is the "pour through" method. You can find Here more detail about this subject.
 
I fertilize @ <30 PPM N every watering(daily) when plants are in growth. I have stopped for the winter(plus I'm out of K-Lite). The only thing I have seen is less coloring in the flowers in a few Catts. Maybe due to the low light levels in my back yard since the sun has moved!?!
 
Well I am about to begin my K-Lite trial. Have finally exhausted my last 25 pound bag of regular MSU. Only a half pound or so left, I will be on K-lite before Christmas.

Yes, Rick is right, I am largely happy with MSU, but have noticed the 'stall' effect, especially when I tried to push plants into faster growth last spring by going up to 120 ppm N MSU every watering vs my usual 50 to 72 ppm N dose rate. But for those that are not sure about K-Lite, I really don't recommend going backward to the old 20-20-20 style formulas.

In my opinion

0-20-0 'Blossom Booster" is a formula incompatible with life. Bad, bad, bad for orchids, its even bad for vegetables growing in the ground these days where we have the "Clean Air Act" and some pollution controls on our industries. The low nitrogen & high phosphorous is a hangover from 19th century gardening practices in London, when all heat for homes and industry was from coal. The acid rain from the coal smog provided English vegetable gardens with all the nitrogen they needed. London smog is where the adage about using high phosphorous in autumn comes from. As people started the autumn heating season, firing up their coal burning home heating plants or stoves for cooking. The coal smoke began precipitating nitrogen in the form of acid rain and acid fog on the vegetable gardens. The smog provided all the nitrogen the vegetables needed. The science was good for its day, but it is good practice that is viable only where you have a choking dense heavy smog, laden with lots of nitrous oxides. Today high phosphorous would only work well for outdoor vegetable gardens in Beijing, or other cities when their smog is bad. If you are not under a smog & ozone alert, don't use a high phosphorous fertilizer indoors or out. An acceptable use of high phosphorous fertilizer is when you are making your own complete formulation, if you add the other components in the ratios the plants actually use.

10-10-10 or 20-20-20 is a continuation of old 19th century chemistry for outdoor gardens, essentially left overs from the dark ages. If you notice, in gardening books, the tendency is to repeat and repeat the old, out of date recommendations, rather than to read and report any of the 20th century science of of the agricultural land grant universities. (Yes, the science behind the original MSU is SO last century, 20th century) 10-10-10 is 19th century.

The 30-10-10 is getting a little better, Stern's Mira-Acid was an even better formulation. I used these for many a year when they were the best thing going for the home retail market.

Somewhere in my time with 30-10-10 I began trying a continuous feeding program. I figure I like to eat every day, the plants want nutrients continuously available for better growth too. Key was to get concentrations right. That didn't happen right away.

The Dyna Grow high nitrogen plus micro nutrient formulations were a nice improvement over the old 30-10-10. Here you actually had some 20th century science. Got my first CCM/AOS and first 2 flower quality awards on plants while using Dyna-Grow products. My program then was continuous feeding, somewhere near 75 ppm, more or less. I forget details now.

Finally MSU has given me the best performance of all the fertilizers I have used to date. Once I started with MSU in the middle 1990's, I finally felt I had good enough growth that I didn't have to keep switching things up. One product was all I needed. I pitched all the other old fertilizers and haven't looked back. Got my second CCM/AOS and several more flower quality awards. By the way, for you bonsai growers, my pines and junipers in completely inorganic soils have developed the best color I ever had, nice healthy blue-green, and vibrant green in the trees that are not naturally glaucous. Good color in my azalea and flowering quinces too. they all get the same continuous feeding too.

Now I am trying the K-Lite formula. I hope this will give me slightly better performance, especially when I want to force a little faster growth out of my plants. I won't be pushing the whole collection, just a flat or two of seedlings. I am hoping a couple of my problem species will pick up and perform better with K-Lite at the 70 ppm continuous feed program. I would love to get my Ray Rands sourced, wild collected Paph mohrianum to hold on to a back growth. I need it to get strong enough to set seed on. Also I would like my micranthum to speed up a little. So I am looking for the incremental improvement, I don't expect miracles. But I am excited to try K-Lite.

I will with my trial decide how to handle the calcarious loving species where I added oystershell and or horticultural limestone. I will go with one or the other of Rick's suggestions, either phase out the limestone & oystershell, maybe revive the old RO system, or use tap water and add a little ammonium nitrate to the K-Lite. I got a week or two to kick it around, maybe work out the details in a new thread.
 
This is pretty exciting Leo. Since you are using MSU and ultimately Klite in a high Ca and alkalinity system.

Just for encouragement I have 2 mastersianum seedlings in spike that are less than 3 years out of flask (I'll double check, but I don't think I'm far off). Masters' are pretty closely related to mohrianum, so I'd be confident this could help.

I'm also getting nice clumping on a P. cililare, and noticed two or 3 low bracts poking up on it.

For continuous feed you may consider what Keither's is doing at roughly 30-50ppm N. Which is about the rate I'm using on my weekly feed.

Looking up my TM records those mastersianum came out of flask 3/29/10, so if blooms open by Christmas then only 2,3/4 years out of flask to blooming.
 

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