Experiment: Comparing Breeding Characteristics of niveum and thaianum

[Ross]

About 8 months ago, I took advantage of double spikes on one of my compact maudiaes, pollinating one with niveum and the other with thaianum. Hopefully both crosses produce viable seed and I can get a direct comparison of the effects of the two on the same plant. Initially, because of the
similar results colorwise when crossed with fairrieanum, I may have erroneously assume that thaianum shared the same color suppression
characteristics with niveum. (see Paph Angela and Paph Tawan.) What made me doubt that they shared the same characteristic was the result of Paph Tiny Harbur (Harbur 'Golden Gateway' HCC/AOS X thaianum). Harbur 'Golden Gateway' is a gold/bronze complex and I had assumed that the thaianum would suppress the green/yellow and possibly produce pink flowers. The actual result so far is shown below. Any comments?

 

[Roth]

The 'thaianum' story is a complicated one.

I saw these plants since the late 90's, where they were assumed to be nothing more than a poor niveum. Then, many collection batches came in the early 2000's. What was interesting is that some were ultra-tiny, 5-8 cm leafspan, some were bigger, and some were big. Most of the 'true' thaianum from those original collection had several spikes per growth, up to 5-6 as I remember. No plant was bigger than maybe 8cm leafspan, they were more the size of rungsuriyanum, and usually very clumpy. The overall shape was definitely not that round.

Some of the later collection batches included clearly natural hybrids/intermediate forms with niveum, in great numbers. In fact some ' good thaianum colonies' were nearly exclusively those intermediate plants. Many had fuller/round shape flowers, and most were 'huge' compared to the original ones, some being the size of a niveum, 12-15+cm leafspan.

There are as well thaianum x niveum hybrids lurking around, artificial ones. I suspect that most thaianums in cultivation have been propagated from the bigger 'stronger plants', that are from those hybrid colonies.

So, I think it depends what 'thaianum' has been used for breeding, if it was purely thaianum, one of the natural intergrades, or whatever.

The other point is that Harbur 'Comet' is a tetraploid complex. I don't know about the other ones. So crossing it with a diploid thaianum would give triploids ( that can be very fertile, after all...), which would be about 1/3 thaianum, and 2/3 Harbus. That might explain the color too...

 

[Roth]

 

[Ross]

The 'thaianum' story is a complicated one.

I saw these plants since the late 90's, where they were assumed to be nothing more than a poor niveum. Then, many collection batches came in the early 2000's. What was interesting is that some were ultra-tiny, 5-8 cm leafspan, some were bigger, and some were big. Most of the 'true' thaianum from those original collection had several spikes per growth, up to 5-6 as I remember. No plant was bigger than maybe 8cm leafspan, they were more the size of rungsuriyanum, and usually very clumpy. The overall shape was definitely not that round.

Some of the later collection batches included clearly natural hybrids/intermediate forms with niveum, in great numbers. In fact some ' good thaianum colonies' were nearly exclusively those intermediate plants. Many had fuller/round shape flowers, and most were 'huge' compared to the original ones, some being the size of a niveum, 12-15+cm leafspan.

There are as well thaianum x niveum hybrids lurking around, artificial ones. I suspect that most thaianums in cultivation have been propagated from the bigger 'stronger plants', that are from those hybrid colonies.

So, I think it depends what 'thaianum' has been used for breeding, if it was purely thaianum, one of the natural intergrades, or whatever.

The other point is that Harbur 'Comet' is a tetraploid complex. I don't know about the other ones. So crossing it with a diploid thaianum would give triploids ( that can be very fertile, after all...), which would be about 1/3 thaianum, and 2/3 Harbus. That might explain the color too...

Thank you for the excellent information. I had not considered the tetraploid issue with standard complex Paphs.

 

[fibre]

I avoid crossing Brachys with the barbata-group. They are dead ends usually.
Nevertheless, an interesting experiment to evaluate your breeding stock.

 

[fibre]

The other point is that Harbur 'Comet' is a tetraploid complex. I don't know about the other ones. So crossing it with a diploid thaianum would give triploids ( that can be very fertile, after all...), ...

As far as I know triploids are difficult to produce seed. Most times they have aneuploid gametes so they are not compatible with any other partner. One exception I've heard of should be Paph. Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper'.

 

[Roth]

As far as I know triploids are difficult to produce seed. Most times they have aneuploid gametes so they are not compatible with any other partner. One exception I've heard of should be Paph. Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper'.

There are quite a few paphs and phals that are triploid and do breed. Some give aneuploids, some give unreduced gametes, and mostly tetraploids when crossed with diploids. On the opposite, Hellas 'Westonbirt' has the ability to produce a large percentage of tetraploid progeny when crossed with diploids, even if Hellas is a diploid.

Skip Bartlett is a complex tetraploid x a diploid species, though I have not counted the chromosomes, it could be a triploid, or a tetraploid, after all. The later would explain why only White Pepper produced white flowers, 3/4 F.C.Puddle and 1/4 godefroyae... All the others from the cross were spotted godefroyae/brachy style plants. The remake was as well only spotted flowers, completely different from 'White Pepper'. Skip Bartlett 'Maybrook' would be a typical example of the cross.

This is, of course, if we consider that 'White Pepper' is a Skip Bartlett. Many complex Paphiopedilum were not properly labeled, and are not even today, by most nurseries, even prestigious ones. I saw some batches of pot-plant Paphiopedilum, NoID, that went to Japan, and found them back on Tokyo Dome and award shows in Japan, with a very nice name and pedigree, and I was told that it happened many times over the decades.

The last shocking part is that I have not seen a Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper' progeny that was heavily godefroyae/leucochilum influenced, and in theory that should have happened....

What I found strange too is that Clair de Lune 'Edgar van Belle' is a very good breeder, both seed and pollen, but only on clumps. If you try even on a very well grown 2 growth plants, it always fails. I did a few crosses with it successfully, divided them last year, only 1 capsule out of maybe 10 flowers. This year, they started to produce seeds again on clumps.

 

[fibre]

Skip Bartlett is a complex tetraploid x a diploid species, though I have not counted the chromosomes, it could be a triploid, or a tetraploid, after all. The later would explain why only White Pepper produced white flowers, 3/4 F.C.Puddle and 1/4 godefroyae... All the others from the cross were spotted godefroyae/brachy style plants. The remake was as well only spotted flowers, completely different from 'White Pepper'. Skip Bartlett 'Maybrook' would be a typical example of the cross.

I don't think that F.C.Puddle is a tetraploid as it is not a big plant nor a big flower. And even the substance of the flower is thin. It was good practice to cross F.C.Puddle to massive green complex Paphs to get bigger whites and most of the resulting progenies had fertility issues. I think this is because the big greens are tetraploids while the F.C.Puddle is a diploid so the combination mostly gives you triploids.

Hellas 'Westonbirt' has the ability to produce a large percentage of tetraploid progeny when crossed with diploids, even if Hellas is a diploid.

I don't unterstand this. If Hellas 'Westonbirt' is a diploid 2X and you cross it with another diploid 2X, how is it possible to get 4X? You usually should end with 2X maybe 3X if one parent gives unreduced gametes. Or does 'Westonbirt' triple the chromosomes while meiosis instead of dividing it???

What I found strange too is that Clair de Lune 'Edgar van Belle' is a very good breeder, both seed and pollen, but only on clumps. If you try even on a very well grown 2 growth plants, it always fails. I did a few crosses with it successfully, divided them last year, only 1 capsule out of maybe 10 flowers. This year, they started to produce seeds again on clumps.

This is quite an interesting point. Thank you for sharing this experience. I always had a kind of feeling that my mother-plants have to be strong, healthy and big. So your observation is the proof for my suspicion.

 

[terryros]

There are quite a few paphs and phals that are triploid and do breed. Some give aneuploids, some give unreduced gametes, and mostly tetraploids when crossed with diploids. On the opposite, Hellas 'Westonbirt' has the ability to produce a large percentage of tetraploid progeny when crossed with diploids, even if Hellas is a diploid.

Skip Bartlett is a complex tetraploid x a diploid species, though I have not counted the chromosomes, it could be a triploid, or a tetraploid, after all. The later would explain why only White Pepper produced white flowers, 3/4 F.C.Puddle and 1/4 godefroyae... All the others from the cross were spotted godefroyae/brachy style plants. The remake was as well only spotted flowers, completely different from 'White Pepper'. Skip Bartlett 'Maybrook' would be a typical example of the cross.

This is, of course, if we consider that 'White Pepper' is a Skip Bartlett. Many complex Paphiopedilum were not properly labeled, and are not even today, by most nurseries, even prestigious ones. I saw some batches of pot-plant Paphiopedilum, NoID, that went to Japan, and found them back on Tokyo Dome and award shows in Japan, with a very nice name and pedigree, and I was told that it happened many times over the decades.

The last shocking part is that I have not seen a Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper' progeny that was heavily godefroyae/leucochilum influenced, and in theory that should have happened....

What I found strange too is that Clair de Lune 'Edgar van Belle' is a very good breeder, both seed and pollen, but only on clumps. If you try even on a very well grown 2 growth plants, it always fails. I did a few crosses with it successfully, divided them last year, only 1 capsule out of maybe 10 flowers. This year, they started to produce seeds again on clumps.

Sorry, Roth. What does "...seeds again on clumps" mean? You can tell I have no personal experience with flasks.

 

[Roth]

That's the problem. F.C. Puddle has been counted and it was 41 chromosomes... It was counted 2 times in fact, by Karasawa himself and by Don Wimber, just checked. It is not a tetraploid then, but a weird aneuploid. Which makes even weirder the fact that Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper' was the only Skip Bartlett with white flowers. All the others Skip Bartlett were a kind of improved godefroyae/brachy style flower, in the original cross and in the remake... So most likely Skip Bartlett 'White Pepper', like Phal Sogo Yukidian and many others is a NoID...

The other strange thing is that F.C. Puddle is Actaeus x Astarte, and Astarte itself has 40 chromosomes, so a polyploid as well.

For Hellas 'Westonbirt' apparently the produced seeds have a chromosome doubling that takes place at or after the fertilization... But it is a fact that a large number of seedlings when crossed with diploids are naturally tetraploids. It is not that odd, as it happens in some Phalaenopsis too...

For the seeds again on clumps, when the plants of Clair de Lune are 2-3 growths, they are nearly sterile, it is impossible to make seeds. When they make a 5+growth clump, they make seeds easily.