Cypripedium help

[greenthumbguru]

Hello all,
I'm West and I'm new to the group and to growing Cypripediums. I also grow Cymbidium orchids as a hobby. I've been doing a little research on Cyp's and have a few questions.
I live in zone 7 - Memphis, Tennessee and am wondering which Cypripedium is best acclimated to my climate. In my research I discovered Cyp. Kentuckiense, Cyp. Parviflorum and Cyp. Pubescens are most likely the best candidates. However, In my experience where someone says it can't be done, someone else succeeds. I'd love to try Cyp. Reginae, but it seems my summers would stress it too much. I do intend to grow these plants in pots. I have a horrible squirrel problem and they tend to dig things up all over and growing them in pots will greatly increase damage control. Does anyone else live in zone 7 and had luck with any other Cyp's than what I've mentioned?
I'm also wondering about potting media. It seems in nature these plants grow in pure leaf mulch, but no one seems to use it at all. Is there a reason? I have access to what people around here call 'black gold' which is pure leaf mulch that has composted over the past several months. Could I just use that with a little sand mixed in?

As I mentioned I also grow Cymbidiums. Right now they are in a mix of coconut husk chips, diatomite and charcoal. I obtained the mix from a friend who got me interested in growing them in the first place . I don't want to deplete his supply when I begin to repot and so I'm looking for alternative potting mixes. Coconut husk chips are just too expensive and I'd have to have them shipped which ads to the cost. I have 3 garbage cans full of Oak tree bark that I saved several years ago from a tree that fell in my back yard. I've broken them up into small chunks that could be used as a potting mix. I also saw a 40lb bag of pine bark mulch and cypress mulch at Home Depot and thought about possibly using it. As it stands I have the 3 cans full of oak tree bark, a 6lb bag of perlite and 2 bags of lava rock and a bag of sand. I'd like to use what I have, but I think the diatomite helps somehow and I know the charchoal 'sweetens' the mix and removes salt. So I'll need to get the charcoal - but can I use my perlite in lieu of the diatomite? What's the significant difference? What mix of the above mentioned things do you think would be suitable to replace the CHC,diatomite and charcoal mix I'm using now. Would Pine bark mulch be too acidic? The texture of the cypress mulch is that of pulled beef or chicken - not chunky, more stringy. I'm nervous it would contain too much salt to use.

I know I've thrown alot of questions out, but you guys probably know more from trial and error than I could gain in a lifetime. Thanks in advance for your input!!

West

 

[SlipperFan]

Welcome to Slippertalk, West! I'm sure you will receive many responses to your questions.

 

[koshki]

I am so glad you posted this question about cyps! I just went through old posts yesterday to try to find one just like this!

I am about to try them too, although I'm in zone 6, so my climate is a little better suited. I'm getting reginae, Ulla Silkens and Phillip soon.

 

[Dido]

Hy,

I have no experience with zone 7, but some slippers live close by.
Like henryii can grow in this range, and the chinese ones can do that too.

Formosanum should do well in your climate. The main think is, they need a could rest during the winter. If you grow chinese leaf cymbidiums they are really close. And it differ what kind of cyp you are growing.

The main experts on soil are other here in the forum.

But waht you have looks good for me. I am using lava rock sand and perlite too.
The main thing is to have a good drainage under them. kentuckiense like it more wett and a finer mixture. Some told me they like to grow in sand. Just trying this with some seedlings. diatomite should do as well.
make it soft hand not compact it. the leaf mull you can put between but would advice you to make in pots about 80% non organic mixture.

Would start with pubescens, reginae and if you get Ulla silkens. On ebay US there was a auction where here was a discussion they looked like Ulla and not like reginae.
About Philipp and Kentuckiense I would wait till you had success with the other kinds. Pubescens and Ulla grow in my garden more sunny and love it, but not all of the rginae love it. You will see it on the plants.

But try to get breaded plants they are much easier than some which are taken from the wild.

A better help than me cntact Garden at Posthill, the ycan you supply with soil for the start, so you get a feeling about how it has to look, and can sill you the right plants for your garden.

 

[tocarmar]

Welcome to the forum!!!
You can grow alot in zone 7, but you have to remember that cyps need a winter rest (usually below freezing temps for a few months). If you are doing pot culture it is easyier to put them in a small refridge/freezer for 2 months.
As for culture here is a link to Gardens of Post Hill (Ron) also a membber here..
http://www.gardensatposthill.com/
I have been growing some cyps for about 3 yrs. I usually mix my own potting mix with what I have on hand. I have some pubescens & henryii in a mix of diatomite on the bottom for drainage & Paph mix(large) with some light weight potting mix, & leaf mulch layered in. The reginae are in about the same but with pine mulch (needles broken, broken pine cones) mixed in.
With the squirrel problem, they have land wire (plastic mesh in rolls) at Lowes, You can make a cage to protect the plants.

Tom

 

[NYEric]

Welcome to STF. There are some growers here that can tell you which cyps you can grow in your area. Regarding squirrels, you have to protect tubers and growing plants from those varmits!

 

[fundulopanchax]

Welcome to the forum,

Many Cyp's will grow for you in zone 7, especially since you plan to grow in pots - some like reginae will need REALLY large pots after a few years unless you divide them often. I grow most of mine in beds once they start blooming but do have some in pots. I have a Gisela that I potted when it bloomed for the first time. In its fourth blooming year it was crowded in an 18 inch pot with 23 stems and 26 flowers - and this is one of the smaller hybrids!

I strongly recommend inorganic medium, I use 50% turface and 50% Soil Perfector now in beds. In pots I tend to use 50% coarse Perlite, and 25% each of the other ingredients to reduce weight. If you choose to use organic medium you will have to repot every year religiously since Cyp's like water! In your climate you will probably have to water every day. With the inorganic media you can place your pots in deep saucers/trays and keep an inch of water in them at all times. The wicking action will make your plants happy and reduce your watering.

Let the pots have about 2 hours of morning (preferable) sun each day - in fact during their first year becoming established in their new pot an hour of sun is fine. During the summer it is important to keep the sun off later in the day since that makes the pots warm and Cyp's HATE hot roots (again the wicking from a tray of water dramatically reduces root temperature). I suspect that overheated roots are the main reason for loss of pot-grown Cyp's.

Cyp's like a lot of fertilizer since they have to grow quickly and large each Spring. We use Dyna Gro Grow since it has trace elements. Things like Schultz orchid food with trace elements also works well as do any of the other hydroponics fertilizers (the trace elements are very important if you use inorganic medium). We include fertilizer in each watering at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water. More fertilizer is even better but if you go too much higher then you will start to see lots of algae on the medium. You can also simply add time release fertilizer in the Spring - again make sure it has trace elements, we use Vigoro brand since our Home Depot has it.

Around Thanksgiving Day here in CT (zone 5/6 border) the plants are dormant. We water the pots heavily in the morning, then in the afternoon after the pots have drained well, we double bag them so that we dont have to worry about dry out during the winter. They pots can be placed next to a house wall with a few inches of leaves over them to reduce temperature fluctuations. Here, we take the bags off around the first of April - you will likely have to do this in March - so that the stems can readily expand as they break dormancy.

As for plants to start with, reginae tolerates a lot of heat - we get to the mid-90s during the summer and have several clumps that get 4-6 hours of blazing sun every day, in the afternoon no less, and they do very nicely. These are in beds - the sun's heat in the afternoon would kill them in pots (I know this from experience!). Cyp Favillianum and Cyp. andrewsii also tolerate a lot of heat - ours are also in the sun a large part of the day but again do not do this in pots. Hybrids like Gisela and Inge do extremely well in pots and most other commonly available hybrids will also do very well in pots. Do NOT try Sebastian in your area, it is really too hot here in CT for it to do well with its montanum genes. Another that would not do well in your climate is flavum; like montanum it likes much cooler temperatures.

Good luck with your Cyp's.

Ron

 

[John M]

Wow! Lots of GOOD, helpful info here Ron. Thank you so much!

 

[tenman]

A friend and I have been growing them in pots in the ground year-round here in zone 6 Ohio, a bit cooler than you will be. But we have done well this way, and I bloomed three of the plants last year and hope for more of the 7-8 plants I have to bloom this year. The mix we use is the one shown on Roger Zielinski's site (raisingrarities.com); it has been working well for us. He was a speaker here at our local society a few years ago and his in-pot-in-the-ground method seemed to be the ticket for us (our 'soil' is 100% heavy clay). It has the added advantage that the plants can be moved at any time if necessary, which came in handy for me last year when a water line had to be run beneath the cyp bed in the middle of the growing season. It would also allow the plants to be taken to shows or meetings without much disturbance. We have also been very pleased with the plants we have purchased from him. We may have to move plants into larger pots as they develop; I am also considering putting them out into the bed at some point. Currently they are in pots in a raised bed above the clay level in a modified soil (mulch, leaves, clay, topsoil, sand) I threw together to allow the pots to drain better than sinking them into the clay.

 

[greenthumbguru]

Thanks Ron!!
You are a fountain of information! Do you suggest getting established plants or seedlings from a reputable grower like Spangle Creek Labs? I understand the established plants will have one or two 'eyes' and could bloom either that season or the next while seedlings will have a 'pip' or two and will take 3-5 years before blooming. The seedlings, I have noticed, are cheaper to obtain, and being new to this I don't want too expensive a learning curve.
I intended to do what Tenman has done and place these in a prepared bed in their pots. They will be in an area that gets early morning sun, dappled afternoon sun and then late evening sun. When it rains, the water flows through the beds, but gives a good drenching soak. We do have periods during the summer where it won't rain for a week, but the leaf mulch tends to retain water well beneath it's layers.
You say Cyp's like water. Do you think they prefer almost bog like conditions or is that too much water for them and possibly promote root rot? I ask because I do have an area in my yard that I have Carnivorous plants growing. They love bog conditions and thrive well in the peat and perlite mix I have provided. I could certainly errect a similar thing for my Cypripediums if you think it would be ideal.

 

[fundulopanchax]

Cyp's like water but they do not tolerate being kept wet - they need to drain well. Young Cyp seedlings are pretty delicate if you havent raised deflasked orchids in the past. We keep our seedlings in pots for the first three years after deflasking so that we can keep a better eye on them. We usuallhy put 6 or 8 seedlings (depending on how large the adults will be) in a 6 inch pot. If you make sure the seedlings do not dry out (keep them more shaded than mature plants, ours do not get any direct sun for at least their first two years) they are a relatively inexpensive way to start with Cyp's. Bill Steele at Spangle Creek Labs has nice seedlings and we have a pretty good selection this spring - in fact I need to take a couple of them down pretty soon since they are getting low.

The pot-in-a-bed approach is a good one, especially in a mixed bed. We often use the pots made for water lilies in beds since they can be obtained in large sizes. We have some images on our website showing how we install them in the garden.

Ron

 

[koshki]

Ron, I'm probably over-thinking and over-worrying this issue, but other than being able to take a pot out of the ground for shows, are there any other reasons to put them in a pot in the ground? Or good reasons to plant them directly in the bed?

I plan on amending the soil...bought the Soil Perfector and builder's sand yesterday and hope to get to it tomorrow. It is already a raised bed with fairly good soil (not clay)...we built the bed last summer.

West, I hope you're getting the info you need, and that this isn't too much of a hijack!

 

[greenthumbguru]

Don't feel hijacked at all

I've been reading along and absorbing everything. I'm probably going to go with the seedlings since budget wise purchasing adult plants isn't possible right now and there doesn't seem to be anyone here in Memphis that grows Cyps that I could purchase cuttings or horse-trade with. I even asked a friend who is a member of the local Orchid Society and none of the members grow Cyps to her knowledge. It definately helps to hear from local people who grow the plants you're interested in. They can be a wealth of information about what works for them. Hearing from experts here on Slippertalk makes up for it.
Since I'll be working with seedlings, I'll probably start off with the inorganic potting media recommended. In a few years, once established, I might try experimenting with different readily available local potting medias to see which works best here in Memphis. Has anyone tried cotton burr compost?

http://www.organic-gardening-for-life.com/cottonburr_compost.html

 

[koshki]

West, you have more patience than I do...I don't know if I could stand waiting a few years to see blooms! But please, don't tell my husband how much I spent on these plants!

 

[fundulopanchax]

other than being able to take a pot out of the ground for shows, are there any other reasons to put them in a pot in the ground? Or good reasons to plant them directly in the bed?

If you plan to allow your plants to grow to many stems it is best to plant directly in the bed. No matter how large the pot is, you will certainly be stunting the plants as even the large water lily pots with holds will keep many roots from finding their way out. Big Cyp's have bid root systems. The largest of all is for Cyp reginae - a root mass extending out 3 feet in all directs from the plant is not unusual.

Ron

 

[greenthumbguru]

Pot size

I appreciate all the great advice! What pot size is best? Ron describes a 3 foot root span for Cyp. Reginae. I have actually turned plastic pond forms into 'bogs' for my carnivorous plants. One has a 4' span and about 12" deep. I could surely turn another pond form into a 'pot' for my Cyp's if necessary, but I was wondering what is the average size pot for an adult plant - pot width and depth?

I understand that it's best to plant in a bed, but I don't plan to live where I am presently residing for much longer. Therefore I'm trying to keep from planting things in a 'permanent fashion', but rather keep them potted and easily transported. With that understood, I'm trying to find out what size pot is best.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

How well do cyps adjust to increased sun? In the next few weeks I'll find out which cyps survived the tornado....these survivors will be growing into much more sun than they ever had. My guess is that they'll adapt, since they are just emerging...or maybe that's just my hope.....

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

When he opens his mouth it is wide

I have been playing around with Cyps in a warm temperate climate for 6 years now (southern Japan, latitude 34 N). From my observations and experiments I can tell you the following about growing them in hot summer climates:

1. They will diminish in pots even if they succeed for a few seasons. The main reason is soil temperature. Pots simply get too hot. I have tried many methods of cooling the pot down, but none have worked to their satisfaction. The only species I can maintain long term in pots so far is C. formosanum.

2. Seedlings will be a real challenge to get to adult size, if indeed you can even keep them alive. To date I have managed to grow only a handful of C. parviflorum to subadult size - there is a chance for one to flower this year. Ditto with C. formosanum - growing slowly bigger each season, but it is like watching paint dry. I have C. macranthos that grow year after year but so far have failed to put on any size. And so on...

3. Organic material in the soil needs to be kept to a minimum, less than 10%. I use seedling grade orchid bark, fine grained pumice, and a material called kanuma that is something like perlite, but holds water a bit better. The ratio used is roughly 5 parts pumice, 1 part kanuma, and 1/2 part bark. C. japonicum and C. formosanum both like more organic matter, so I up it to around 30% with these only.

4. Sunshine is a no-no since the root run will get too hot. Bright shade, say that suited to Cattleyas is enough for most species.

5. Plants will grow or diminish regardless of your efforts. The following species and their hybrids are good choices: formosanum, japonicum, kentuckiense, and parviflorum v. pubescens. Others that might be OK include fasciolatum, henryi, and candidum. Also tolerant of heat if grown correctly is debile, but it is a tough plant to maintain long term, as is acaule. Cool growers like parviflorum v. parviflorum (as well as v. makasin), macranthos, flavum, and reginae are not likely to make it for very long. Having said that, I am trying to grow reginae, parv. v. parviflorum, macranthos, tibeticum, and flavum! Foolish....

To summarize, if you are in a hot climate I recommend starting with healthy adult or near adult plants. They should be grown in elevated beds of nearly pure inorganic, free draining compost in very bright shade. Fertilize often from the beginning of growth, through flowering, and until the real heat hits - say when the average daily temperature goes above 25 C (77 F). At that point stop fertilizing. If your fall tends to be warm through October you can give one last shot of fertilizer the last month of growth. Very important: never let the bed dry out because that will not only stress the plants, it will allow the soil temperature to increase dangerously, and will cause the plants to go into early dormancy.

Book over. Sorry.

 

[greenthumbguru]

Wow

Thanks Tom!
I'm in Zone 7, so it's a bit warmer here. I'm getting the gist of the fact that Cyps like cool roots and keeping them moist and cool is essential in keeping them happy. I'm wondering if setting up a 'cooling system' would be beneficial. I've got a working cold drinking fountain and thought about placing a network of tubing through a raised bed in which to set the pots. I could connect the fountain up to continually flow through the tubing keeping the soil-less media the pots are sitting in at a set temp.
I've mentioned I grow carnivorous plants and the Cobra Lily naturally grows next to cold mountain streams in Northern California. I've contrived a system to use the cold condensation that comes from my air conditioner to flow through the pot and it's growing like a champ.
Where there's a will....there's a way!!

 

[greenthumbguru]

Hello Ron, I found a local supplier for both the Turface and the Soil Perfector. They both have to special order it for me so I am asking if there is anything specific I need to find out before ordering. Are there specific 'grades' they come in such as fine, medium or course? Searching online I found that Soil Perfector can be as large as small stones (up to 2") or almost like sand. The Turface also comes in 'Pro Leauge' or 'MVP' size (pro leauge being finer, MVP being courser). Which do you find works best?