Chicagoland Orchid Fest

[Chris]

On Sunday I purchased an In-Charm Handel (delenatii x hangianum) seedling which is supposed to form a flower that is "white w/pink & green blush". This is my first time trying to post an image (using imageshack). Hopefully the picture loads properly.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[JeanLux]

the pict shows up correctly (rather small; you have the preview button to sheck your post before submitting). Good luck and keep us updated!!! Jean

 

[biothanasis]

Nice seedling!!! Thanks for the post! What is this whitish substance on top of the central foliage?

 

[Chris]

That is a calcium supplement deposit. Oak Hill had very prominent signs posted throughout the greenhouse explaining they fertilize this way to supply micro-nutrients; they must get a lot of questions. Kind of strange, huh?

 

[neo-guy]

So Oakhill is selling these seedlings? Isn't P. hangianum illegal in the US, including it's hybrids?
Peter T.

 

[goldenrose]

So Oakhill is selling these seedlings? Isn't P. hangianum illegal in the US, including it's hybrids?
Peter T.

Yep. Not with proper paperwork.

 

[NYEric]

I'd like to see some 'real' paperwork.

 

[biothanasis]

Thanks Chris!!!

 

[Chris]

I don't know about paperwork - would you settle for a webpage?

If you follow the Oak Hill link, you'll see my original posting was incorrect as this plant is clearly labeled In-Charm Handel (delenatii x emersonii v. hangianum):

http://www.oakhillgardens.com/htm/orchid_fs_detail.php?prod=2350

The source of this confusion is really the plant tag. There wasn't enough space to type the full name. Since they ran out of room, they had to leave off the part about "emersonii var". See:



Understand? Again, I apologize for the confusion or for misleading anyone.

 

[goldenrose]

I see plenty of room to print more on that tag if needed! To me, here's where the confusion lies - don't most consider emersonii & hangianum seperate species? Yes they're closely related but I never considered hangianum to be a variety of emersonii.

 

[NYEric]

I also believe hang is a separate species. I don't think the confusion was caused by you Chris, and I have the same cross from Norman's. I believe the problem is that CITES says this plant is illegal unless you have paperwork.

 

[goldenrose]

If someone legally imported a hang, emers,or helenae & then crossed it, why would these resulting plants be illegal? The challenge might be trying to prove that is the origin of this cross/group of plants.

 

[NYEric]

Go for it! :evil:
That would be exactly the problem but what makes it worse is that some countries say they never released some of the restricted species!

 

[Leo Schordje]

I suggest ignoring the whole CITEs stuff, as long as you are not exporting to another country - you haven't broken the rules. Keep your receipt. And forget about it.

If Oak Hill bought those seedlings in the USA they did not break the rules either. It is only the original importer of the hangianum plant or pollen used that would be in trouble.

As some cartoon character says: "Ignore them, if you pay attention to them (CITES) it only encourages them"

 

[Leo Schordje]

As an addendum - what constitutes proper CITES paperwork? If you are not the importer. If you are buying the plant inside the USA and are not moving across international borders. The rules actually say. The "sales receipt" full stop, period. All you need is the sales receipt showing where you bought the plant - essentially proving you did not import the plant. That is all. Keep your sales receipt and you are fully legal. No need to fret about whether a plant is 'legal' or not. Just keep your receipt.

I know for a fact that Oak Hill bought those plants from a wholesaler, they did not produce those seedlings, they don't have hangianum.

I do want to remind people that several commercial firms have been working hard for several years now on trying to get legal hangianum. Perhaps one of the wholesalers succeded. I know of a couple that were working on it. (not at liberty to disclose) An Tec and Paphanatics did vietnamense & helenae respectively, perhaps one of the several trying hangianum succeded. It might very well be that Oak Hill's plants were 100% legal. Oak Hill has been around a long time and is unlikely to mess with illegal plants. So give them the benefit of the doubt and rejoice in the fact that it looks like there are now a few legal hangianums in the US. First to come out will be the hybrids, then the species, because they grow slower.

 

[Chris]

Wow, Leo. Sounds like you really know what you're talking about. In fact, everybody on this board has been really great. BTW, when you're importing plants which aren't in bloom, who can tell what plant it is anyhow?

Thanks for all the wisdom, I'll learn a lot from everybody.

 

[NYEric]

Haha! Just that little quirky government "we'll hold onto your plants until they bloom out and prove to be legal plants" thing!

BTW, when you're importing plants which aren't in bloom, who can tell what plant it is anyhow?

 

[Ed M]

RHS registration says that In-Charm Handel is a hybrid of delenatii x hangianum, registered in 2005. No mention of emersonii.

It's my understanding from what others have said, that flasks of appendix one species seedlings are legal if they are accompanied by their CITES permits. Trying to get that legal permit is the tricky part. Once they are in your country, you merely need some kind of "paper trail" from where they came from...a nursery label suffices. This was the case with Paph. vietnamense and Phrag. kovachii. Hybrids are now being sold of these two species and apparently the concern for paperwork for them has vanished...eg. you can buy Paph. Ho Chi Minh just about anywhere. I assume its the same for Paph. hangianum now...flasks of seedlings with permits were raised up and bloomed and hybrids are being made and sold...and as they bloom the concern for a paper trail will vanish too.

Does that sound about right, Leo?

 

[Leo Schordje]

It's my understanding from what others have said, that flasks of appendix one species seedlings are legal if they are accompanied by their CITES permits. Trying to get that legal permit is the tricky part. Once they are in your country, you merely need some kind of "paper trail" from where they came from...a nursery label suffices. This was the case with Paph. vietnamense and Phrag. kovachii. Hybrids are now being sold of these two species and apparently the concern for paperwork for them has vanished...eg. you can buy Paph. Ho Chi Minh just about anywhere. I assume its the same for Paph. hangianum now...flasks of seedlings with permits were raised up and bloomed and hybrids are being made and sold...and as they bloom the concern for a paper trail will vanish too.

Does that sound about right, Leo?

Um....right...mostly. I believe the document required to prove you purchased the plant in the USA really is the Sales Receipt. The plant label may be accepted at the agent's discression, but I think the best proof is the sales receipt. Key is - you bought it inside the USA, you were not the importer, only the importer has to worry about having all the paperwork straight. You (the customer inside the USA) are under no legal obligation to see or check the import papers for the plant or the parents of the plant. Actually I don't think a private citizen has any legal right to demand to see the import papers, the import papers belong to the importer, and can be kept private between the importer and USFWS & USDA-APHIS.


There is more, but I don't want to get too far out over my ski's. I am out of date on the mechanics of actually importing plants.


Leo

 

[Chris]

Haha! Just that little quirky government "we'll hold onto your plants until they bloom out and prove to be legal plants" thing!

If it's years away from blooming size, I wonder if they charge you a storage and maintenance fee?