To Chc Or Not To Chc?

[Rick]

I've had some great results and not so great results.

In general I've had great results with CHC based mixes for just about every muliti and sequential flowering paph I have.

Great results with henryanum, exul, charlesworthii, and some other paphiopedium subgenera.

Mixed results with brachies

Mixed to poor with barbatas.

In general if I have oyster shell in the mix they tend to to good. Mixed with sphagnum they do good for a while, and then go downhill after a year or less.

CHC has some pretty wierd ion exchange capacity issues so besides the soaking to get the salts out, I've recently started a final soak with a calcium/magnesium phophate mix to preload some phosporous into the CHC.

I have some collosum potted up in this now, but its too early to tell anything.

 

[Brian Monk]

I grow in a mix of CHC, charcoal, and perlite. Occasionally I add sphag. I grow outside (a shade house) with some control over water, in south Florida. My paphs love CHC. I think it is important to realize that CHC does come in different sizes. I use medium size, and screen out the fines. I like it, my plants like it, and I think it breaks down more slowly than bark, and I repot evry 12-24 months.

 

[bellas]

I have not been growing paphs for long, in fact, I only have a few...but my first paph a delenatii was headed down hill quick from root rot, it had about 6-7 growths when this was going on, now, it has about 15-16 and 2 more on the way. It really has helped at keeping the roots alive longer than in bark.
It's much easier to not over water in CHC as opposed to bark, I have not noticed my roots only growing at the top of the pots, they grow a pretty deep root system at least for me.

Now, if I could only get my paphs to bloom........

 

[davidvaldez33]

I have not been growing paphs for long, in fact, I only have a few...but my first paph a delenatii was headed down hill quick from root rot, it had about 6-7 growths when this was going on, now, it has about 15-16 and 2 more on the way. It really has helped at keeping the roots alive longer than in bark.
It's much easier to not over water in CHC as opposed to bark, I have not noticed my roots only growing at the top of the pots, they grow a pretty deep root system at least for me.

Now, if I could only get my paphs to bloom........

Paph delenatii was the first paph I ever purchased. I have bloomed mine every spring (feb or march) now for the last 5 years. I grow mine in my windowsill where it gets quite chilly here in the winter in North Dakota. I think that the cold along with my tendency to neglect my plants (especially watering) during the winter helps to shock it into bloom. Hope this helps you!
David

 

[Mrs. Paph]

Well, w/o going too indepth on my thoughts on this subject: Comment 1: Ernie, you're right not to switch over to a mostly CHC mix - the two plants I've gotten from you had wonderful top growth and wonderfu roots!! I wish all the plants I've gotten elsewhere had arrived in such nice condition! Comment 2: Those two plants went directly into my CHC mix, the smaller w/ some added sphag & leca, larger into CHC's and leca, and they haven't missed a beat, almost filled their new pots w/ roots already! ...One I did have the embarrassment of having to move up to a bigger pot only 2 months after repotting it on arrival...I guess I wasn't optimistic enough! I would say that CHC's are like all pot type/media combinations - it depends on the Other growing conditions whether it's a good fit or not.

 

[Mrs. Paph]

PS: I've completely switched over to clear plastic pots now, and decided that plastic pots will Always be best - until the day they invent clear Clay pots, at which point I'll re-evaluate that statement LOL

 

[Ray]

How about a little science?

Reading this thread, I see a lot of conjecture about whether CHC is good or bad, anecdotal evidence both ways, but no explanation of why that may be a problem or not.

• Yes, cleanliness can be an issue, but it can be addressed fairly easily.

• 
  Particle size and shape can also give you different packing densities, hence air flow.

• 
  Adding other ingredients of different sizes and shapes will also cause that to vary widely.

• 
  Longevity of CHC versus bark has yielded two camps as well - for me it lasts far longer than bark, for others, not. Is that a material quality issue? (For both probably)

All of those things point to fixable root-zone environmental conditions, but is there any scientific data out there that might explain it otherwise? Absorption/release characteristics? Something chemically odd about CHC itself?

 

[Rick]

Reading this thread, I see a lot of conjecture about whether CHC is good or bad, anecdotal evidence both ways, but no explanation of why that may be a problem or not.

• Yes, cleanliness can be an issue, but it can be addressed fairly easily.

• 
  Particle size and shape can also give you different packing densities, hence air flow.

• 
  Adding other ingredients of different sizes and shapes will also cause that to vary widely.

• 
  Longevity of CHC versus bark has yielded two camps as well - for me it lasts far longer than bark, for others, not. Is that a material quality issue? (For both probably)

All of those things point to fixable root-zone environmental conditions, but is there any scientific data out there that might explain it otherwise? Absorption/release characteristics? Something chemically odd about CHC itself?

The ion exchange properties for CHC have been documented somewhere. Might check with Bob Welenstien for a reference. He was the one who came up with a MgSO4 soak for CHC prep.

But you are correct that this is a very complex medium with tons of variables, and no studies of significant sample size to understand what's really going on.

 

[Roth]

The ion exchange properties for CHC have been documented somewhere. Might check with Bob Welenstien for a reference. He was the one who came up with a MgSO4 soak for CHC prep.

But you are correct that this is a very complex medium with tons of variables, and no studies of significant sample size to understand what's really going on.

Shortly as those days I have too many different works to do.

* I documented I think on the other forum the CHC problems in details, and here as well.

* http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf is a comparision between coir and peat moss, to give you an idea about what's wrong.

* Floricultura in Heemstede issued a review on phalaenopsis that proved the growth of phals plants to be halved or nearly so when using bark + coir instead of bark + sphagnum. That study was on several hundreds of plants for each sample...

* I was the one who 'came up' scientifically about the Calcium and Magnesium, and I informed ( for free) the people on the AOS forum at that time, and several large growers. It took another year for Bob to carry on analysis with baryum extraction based on what I wrote on AOS forum, and possibly some huge culturals problems and realize I was right... No professionnal orchid grower believed that Na+ ( sodium) would not be leached by plain water, I had to make the destructive analysis (not the common water-extract technic, but the plain destruction of the sample, to ensure everything present is analyzed) when I realized something was wrong with coconut products.

* CHC makes wonderful roots for many types, at least at first, but the top growth never follows completely... Some plant become allergic or sort of to CHC too.

* All the major growers either did not touch coconut products, or abandoned their use ( Norton, the Orchid Zone in part, AnTec, etc...),

* There is a way to properly use CHC, but it is extremely complicated, much more than a couple soaksin divalent carions solution.

* People at first do not believe others when they say that their CHC potted plants looks like crap. The steps are 1/they pot few plants to try 2/ they get plenty of roots 3/ they repot everything 4/ some months/year later problems appear 5/ they have only CHC potted plants, so they do not realize the general slow down and chlorosis at that time. Usually, when they repot again in a bark medium, it does not take too long for them to understand that so far bark is superior to CHC. There are individual exceptions for CHC similar to Steph from France who can grow in rockwhool cubes nearly everything...

Make a search about CHC, I wrote already about all of that.

For the funny cation behavior, and catch-up-without-release followed by massive release, search google.com, there are plenty of references. the www.uspto.gov has couple of patents for a permanent filter to remove heavy metals using coconut and the cation exchange behavior....

 

[Hien]

Those side by side pictures really speak volume.

 

[Rick]

Really a complex situation.

In the Ag study it appears that the coir was not rinsed to reduce salt content prior to testing, and the over-abundance of K is interesting.

Also of note is the use of lime in the peat moss control mix.

In some ways this study agrees with my general observation that multis in my CHC mixes with oyster shell amendment should do better than in mixes without it.

The reference to release of phenolic compounds is interesting, but I would suspect that this is a very complex issue since phenolics are readily biodegradable.

I work in the waste water industry, and I've seen papers for development of effective metal sequestering filters made from everything from standard peat moss, CHC, to coffee grounds. Just about any humic containing substance has metal entrapping properties which varies dramatically even among different sources of peat.

 

[Rick]

* I was the one who 'came up' scientifically about the Calcium and Magnesium, and I informed ( for free) the people on the AOS forum at that time, and several large growers.

I apologize for not giving you credit, but I didn't see your name mentioned in the article that Bob published on his website.

* There is a way to properly use CHC, but it is extremely complicated, much more than a couple soaksin divalent carions solution.

You refereed to this in a previous post, and we are still waiting to hear the method!!:clap:

 

[Rick]

Really a complex situation.

In the Ag study it appears that the coir was not rinsed to reduce salt content prior to testing, and the over-abundance of K is interesting.

In rereading this article the high salt Mexican brands are the ones that really trashed the corn and broccoli, and some of the treatments of low salt Sri Lanka CHC did equal or slightly better than peat mixes.

I also noted that the worst brand of Mexican coir also massively boosted the aluminum in corn foliar analysis. This would really tie up phosphorus, and with the high K promote some serious imbalance of NPK.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Coir is the powdered coconut stuff...its weird....I can't grow non-orchids in it- they die right away....and that's after heavy soaking. With orchids- phrags hate it. Paphs will revive in it, but make no new root growth. Terrestrials like Ludisia like it, but require yearly repotting...and Cymbidiums love it...can stay in it until the pot contains nothing but solid roots. Coir and perlite is my medium of choice for Cymbidiums....nothing else, though.....Take care, Eric

 

[Rick]

Coir is the powdered coconut stuff...its weird....I can't grow non-orchids in it- they die right away....and that's after heavy soaking. With orchids- phrags hate it. Paphs will revive in it, but make no new root growth. Terrestrials like Ludisia like it, but require yearly repotting...and Cymbidiums love it...can stay in it until the pot contains nothing but solid roots. Coir and perlite is my medium of choice for Cymbidiums....nothing else, though.....Take care, Eric

The article that Sangii published showed that there are huge differences in coir quality based on source, and how you handle it. There were also significant differences in how the different plant species ( in this case corn, wheat, broccoli, and soy beans) could handle the different sources and treatments.

It really is a complex science, but two factors that may be consistent is high potassium, iron, and aluminum capacity will promote phosphorus (and even nitrogen) imbalances. Your irrigation water and fertilizer choices could impact final results.

 

[bellas]

Shouldn't we wait for tests that are genuinely controlled, and actually have to do with orchids?!

 

[Rick]

Shouldn't we wait for tests that are genuinely controlled, and actually have to do with orchids?!

There is a reference in the Ag article to a "monocot" (could be orchids or lilies?) experiment that looked pretty dismal. Otherwise we may be waiting for a while for a blind controlled orchid experiment that looks at as many variables as the Ag experiment.

I the meantime heres some more anecdotal experience.



This stonei was a fresh out of compot seedling (<6"LS) when I bought it in 9/04. I repotted it back then in my CHC mix. I can't remember if I have repotted since then, but I know I have replenished oyster shell by top dressing over the last 4 years. It is now a 3 growth plant (still in a 2"pot), in sheath, with a 26 inch LS. I don't think it looks chlorotic, and from what most people are saying about how slow their stonei's are growing, I think it has done quite well, and repotted no more than 2X in 4 years in CHC. Just about all my multi's have done well in my CHC mix under my culture regime, and I don't think it's just because I have nothing to compare them too. I have resurrected a badly beat up roth and roebelinii in it (I have posted pics of the roebelinii that throws 7 flowers per spike for a couple years now, still in the same mix), and wilhelms are supporting very dark green multiple growths without repotting for 3 years.

BTW I can definitely not make these general claims for my barbata and many other more acidic appreciating paphs or phrags I've tried CHC mixes on.

I just don't think that CHC is the universal Darth Vader off the orchid world, and its worth using if we can figure out it's pitfalls. We may actually be able to use this info for understanding the rest of orchid culture.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Well, I don't have stoneii....but I have found that philipinense and its hybrids appreciate CHC far more than any other paphs. I have definitely not raced to repot mine into bark. And there is no question that barbata hate CHC the most...although I received a compot of violascens that is in CHC and doing very well....I will repot it, but I try to avoid "elective" repotting of paphs in the summer......Eric

 

[Bolero]

It's interesting how some hate it and some love it. I find my Parvi's are doing well and the Brachy's but barbata do hate it along with a few others.

As for my other plants? They all love it!

 

[Damas]

I don't use it because I don't like it's texture, it's just a feeling, I have no growing experience with it.