Paphiopedilum rothschildianum with true pedigree, second flowering

[Roth]

A rothschildianum 'Dark Angel' x 'Howard Martin' from Paph Paradise...

I got the flasks, grew them, and bloomed them 2 times, already, some 3 times. But this plant I sold before it bloomed. There are photos of the first and second bloom, none in my growing conditions. As you can see, and not in my growing conditions, rothschildianum with a real pedigree, no matter who grows them ( even if Philippe is an excellent grower!) will retain the characteristics of their parents.

One more evidence that many of the roth crosses bloomed lately from other sources have completely bogus parents. The flowers can improve on a more mature plant, but they do not fundamentally change at all.

Second blooming:



First blooming:

 

[spujr]

I was commenting on this same post! I just got one plant of the same cross, 6 leaves from paph Paradise while this one is already in the second bloom! Maybe from a different pod/flask?

 

[Roth]

I was commenting on this same post! I just got one plant of the same cross, 6 leaves from paph Paradise while this one is already in the second bloom! Maybe from a different pod/flask?

No, they are the same, but these were grown in rockwool, that makes a 'small' difference in growth speed.

 

[spujr]

I remember last year, someone posted a roth from the same cross (it was called Howard B. Norton, but I suspect that was a typo): Paph rothschildianum ‘Exotic Angel’ Dark Angel x Howard P Norton).

I thought this roth was one of the best I have seen posted in 2023. It was so stuck in my memory that when I went to Paph Paradise a couple of weeks ago, I asked Dave if he still had plants left for sale of this cross.

Dark Angel was truly a wonder by itself. The size of those petals were amazing.

 

[Roth]

I remember last year, someone posted a roth from the same cross (it was called Howard B. Norton, but I suspect that was a typo): Paph rothschildianum ‘Exotic Angel’ Dark Angel x Howard P Norton).

I thought this roth was one of the best I have seen posted in 2023. It was so stuck in my memory that when I went to Paph Paradise a couple of weeks ago, I asked Dave if he still had plants left for sale of this cross.

Dark Angel was truly a wonder by itself. The size of those petals were amazing.

Yes they were all plants that I have grown to NBS/BS in fact. There are way more somewhere on the forum, I posted a few.

About Paph Paradise, as I said, I have bought very different things from Dave, roths, fairrieanum, Maudiae hybrids of all kinds ( Vogue Paradise, etc etc) mastersianum, etc, etc...

All bloomed true to the parents, and were of superb quality.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Wow…
The plant is exemplary!
A picture of health!

 

[SlipperKing]

Based on your post last year Xavier I picked up the last 3 plants he had listed on his website of this cross. He could have more but not listed on his site

 

[emydura]

Incredible roth and what a magnificently grown plant. I need to look at this rockwool.

 

[LukeC]

Excellent flower, I hope to get more Paph Paradise Roths in the future, just logistically getting them in the UK is hard. I grow my phrags in rockwool, but never considered it for paphs. What benefits and potential drawbacks are there to growing paphs, particularly roths in rockwool?

 

[FrankRC]

A rothschildianum 'Dark Angel' x 'Howard Martin' from Paph Paradise...

I got the flasks, grew them, and bloomed them 2 times, already, some 3 times. But this plant I sold before it bloomed. There are photos of the first and second bloom, none in my growing conditions. As you can see, and not in my growing conditions, rothschildianum with a real pedigree, no matter who grows them ( even if Philippe is an excellent grower!) will retain the characteristics of their parents.

One more evidence that many of the roth crosses bloomed lately from other sources have completely bogus parents. The flowers can improve on a more mature plant, but they do not fundamentally change at all.

Second blooming:



First blooming:

If the implication here is that other nurseries that line breed Paph. rothschildianum engage in the practice of routinely and purposefully mislabeling the parentage of their roths, you are dead wrong on this topic, again. Dave is not the only breeder of roth’s who accurately tags his plants. If someone else is, or has, bred better roth’s than you have Xavier it’s not because they are crooks that pass off hybrids as species nor engage is the systemic and intentional mislabeling of plants in order to defraud the orchid world. Dave breeds GREAT roth’s, no doubt, but so do a lot of other breeders and a plant, or a few plants, from a flask that don’t measure up to awarded parents is not be presumed to be the result of knowingly mislabeling the plants. Genetics is not the absolute science that you mistakenly believe it is and individual culture can, and does, impact flower qualities. Bad growers don’t grow awarded plants.

If you have specific information about a breeder, post it. We all want to know. If you are pontificating because your own stock doesn’t measure up to what is being done at other nurseries, let’s be clear about that too.

Phragmipedium on the other hand, that’s a whole different a story.

Best,

 

[Roth]

If the implication here is that other nurseries that line breed Paph. rothschildianum engage in the practice of routinely and purposefully mislabeling the parentage of their roths, you are dead wrong on this topic, again. Dave is not the only breeder of roth’s who accurately tags his plants. If someone else is, or has, bred better roth’s than you have Xavier it’s not because they are crooks that pass off hybrids as species nor engage is the systemic and intentional mislabeling of plants in order to defraud the orchid world. Dave breeds GREAT roth’s, no doubt, but so do a lot of other breeders and a plant, or a few plants, from a flask that don’t measure up to awarded parents is not be presumed to be the result of knowingly mislabeling the plants. Genetics is not the absolute science that you mistakenly believe it is and individual culture can, and does, impact flower qualities. Bad growers don’t grow awarded plants.

If you have specific information about a breeder, post it. We all want to know. If you are pontificating because your own stock doesn’t measure up to what is being done at other nurseries, let’s be clear about that too.

Phragmipedium on the other hand, that’s a whole different a story.

Best,

Don't worry too much about my rothschildianum plants... I have Mt Millais, some other FCC awarded, and a lot of award quality ones, from various sources. Even the BlackBird from TON, that came from me in fact, through the world. It was a selfing of 'Commander' AM/RHS.

Yes, there are quite a few crooks, some famous, that buy generic rothschildianum or other orchids, put nice pedigree, nice photos, and sell them to unsuspecting customers, and I am not dead wrong on the topic, I know much more than most people, but I can speak openly, as my income do not depend from them, it is a big difference.

Re-read the post I made with photos about the f***ing urbanianum hybrid sold by 5 different nurseries, with 10 different parents, and a few different 'parent plant photos'. They were caught red-handed. They bought 'generic urbanianum' cheapcheapcheap, did put their awards and pedigree on them, sold them 'NBS' for 5-10 times the price paid. Profit overnight. Bad f***up, it was an hybrid of urbanianum x Maudiae types, that originated from Schwerter ( who are very honest, and did not do anything wrong, to be correct...).

Fairrieanum, there was a pot plant batch not long ago. It ended up with 4 different 'breeders', 4 different parent photos, same pot, same substrate, same plant size... So no, I am not wrong.

At a point you do not know how the commercial trade works, but I do, because I did feed a very large part of it before, honestly.

When I see Japanese, Americans, coming to Waterdrinker pot plant wholesale market, buy NoID Complex, some yellow Pinnochio, etc... and I see few days/weeks later those plants in Japan for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, or in America as ' primulinum 4n', well, there is little doubt about the intentions of the buyers.

rothschildianum, I know there are masses of generic rothschildianum that were sold from Taiwan to Hawaii and the USA. I know as well that the entire batch of Rex x Mt Kinabalu was sold as Rex x Mt Millais. I was there, I saw it... and it is only one example. An easy one, because I have bloomed more seedlings of rothschildianum than most people too, from many different crosses, many different sources, perfectly well grown.

Well, if you remember the 90's there used to be rothschildianum 'Rex' x 'Mt Kinabalu' at the Orchid Zone, a few thousands seedlings. All of them were resold as 'Rex' x 'Mt Millais', which explains as well why some Rex x Mt Millais did have weird looking flowers....

Genetics cannot be just avoided. If I breed a delenatii and a Maudiae, I won't get a sanderianum, right ?

For rothschildianum, there are different colonies, and different types, historically. So when something blooms, in the size, and flower quality of a generic batch of rothschildianum that was in Kaoshiung, with FCC awarded parents that do not even remotely look close, and when I know that the 'breeder' did buy plants from that very same source, 1+1 = 2.

The other problem is that I have bloomed a lot of rothschildianum from seedlings. If we take the Orchid Inn rothschildianum, I had to grow some for a couple of friends as well, and I see the photos. None bloomed even remotely close to the parents.

Dave, 100% related to the parents.
Shen-Liu, 100% related to the parents,
Ruey-Hua, 100% related to the parents.
TON Val x Mt Millais original ones, 100% related to the parents.
Mine, 100% related to the parents, and I did quite a few different crosses over the years.

There are a few sources where zero were related to the parents. I got a lot of the Bear rothschildianum NBS about 10 years ago, I mean 100 plants, zero were remotely related, as an example. I had to dump them to the Vietnamese as pot plant... Orchid Inn, I have yet to bloom or see one that is even remotely close to the parents... Recently too, some Orchid Inn Multifloral hybrids did not bloom properly, with different pedigrees. Why are the mistakes on the tags identical to what happened in Taiwan?

There was, once upon a time, a picture of emersonii var. luteum. A golden yellow emersonii, in the 90's. It was offered to me and Boscha Popow back then for 12.000 US, and definitely worth it, directly from the owner. Alas, when it bloomed, it turned out to be a normal emersonii. After a bit of complain, a refund was accepted, in exchange for plants. A few years later, I get an offer for emersonii var. album, very rare... The same picture as emersonii luteum, but photoshopped white that time... When you scam, it is always best to have good memory. And that's a very famous 'Paphiopedilum reference' that offered the luteum, and the albino subsequently. What else can we expect?

If you have a good explanation, I am curious to hear that. And yes, you cannot breed a cat out of a dogs, that's what I call genetics.

Phragmipedium is indeed a vast topic, with polyploids, backcrosses of besseae and the dalessandroi types, infusion of schlimii that gave some peach colors, etc... and yes, a lot of it was fully intentional. It is difficult to understand why you would belive that paphs are to be different...

 

[spujr]

I have grown out several flasks from Paph Paradise. In my experience, the plant quality is top notch compared to getting flasks from other sources. I might go as far to say PP flasks are the best one can get globally for paphs.

However, even in a given flask from PP I do see runt seedlings. I think this is unavoidable. It's a lot like sowing seed of any plant, a few get overshadowed and miss the train.

I have seen even Dave having these runt plants as well, but I also see him pick them out and throw them away. He only brings forward the average to above average progeny.

I can't say what other growers do, but I have heard some keep every plant alive, including the runts and these go unnoticed when 20 years later they resemble a healthy plant.

 

[Tony]

I have grown out several flasks from Paph Paradise. In my experience, the plant quality is top notch compared to getting flasks from other sources. I might go as far to say PP flasks are the best one can get globally for paphs.

However, even in a given flask from PP I do see runt seedlings. I think this is unavoidable. It's a lot like sowing seed of any plant, a few get overshadowed and miss the train.

I have seen even Dave having these runt plants as well, but I also see him pick them out and throw them away. He only brings forward the average to above average progeny.

I can't say what other growers do, but I have heard some keep every plant alive, including the runts and these go unnoticed when 20 years later they resemble a healthy plant.

I have been impressed with every flask I buy from Dave.

 

[Roth]

I have grown out several flasks from Paph Paradise. In my experience, the plant quality is top notch compared to getting flasks from other sources. I might go as far to say PP flasks are the best one can get globally for paphs.

However, even in a given flask from PP I do see runt seedlings. I think this is unavoidable. It's a lot like sowing seed of any plant, a few get overshadowed and miss the train.

I have seen even Dave having these runt plants as well, but I also see him pick them out and throw them away. He only brings forward the average to above average progeny.

I can't say what other growers do, but I have heard some keep every plant alive, including the runts and these go unnoticed when 20 years later they resemble a healthy plant.

That's true. However for the runts in term of growth speed, it can depend on the metabolism of the plants, as well. You have to be aware as well that some species proliferate in flask, kovachii, besseae, rothschildianum do this frequently. The small plants may well be just clones of the bigger one close to them, so they are not exactly runts, but they need more care, as they are way smaller...

There are definitive runts that should be thrown away, which I usually do at every repotting until they bloom, for anything. That I have my own lab reduces as well the cost tremendously for that...

There are plants selected by the tissue culture media as well... so by the nutrition, sugar content, etc... It happens more frequently than we could expect, especially in primary hybrids between vastly different species.

Indeed, a lot of growers pay for their seedlings in the lab, and they want to save the money, or they just think, well that's a plant, need to grow it and sell it rather than lose money.

We got here a couple of gigantic messes in the Phalaenopsis clones. At a point some clones had mutation, and the guys were selling 10-15cm leafspan plants. The problem being that some were 3-4 months out of flask, which is normal, and some were a couple years out of flask. They never caught up, no matter, the speed growth and flower count/quality of the normal ones. So yes, that's true that some growers keep alive 100% of everything they deflask or grow, which is a bad practice. In Europe we cannot allow that, because of our costs. In Taiwan or Thailand, the costs are very low, and then it becomes an option, after all...

This said, for species, I got the flasks from Dave as well, and the tiny ones do catch up for the species, though I throw away anything that does not grow well and fast. For the hybrids, especially the Complex, anything slow, pygmy, or with abnormal growth goes to the dustbin.

There is a second line of screening as well. As an example, for Petula's Sensation, I sold NBS plants to a couple of customers. I was more expensive than a couple of other growers that had them. The reason was that, after making 1-2 leaf out of flask, it was possible to destroy all the ones that would not have black petals. On the other side, it nearly doubles the price of the plants at the end. There are ways to select the plants well before they bloom. We cannot know for certain they will be FCC quality, but it is possible to know if the flowers won't have the color/shape expected ( think in a simple way vinicolors...), or will be deformed ( Complex with distorted leaves, sometimes rugged surface leaves). This is valid only in 1 grower conditions, and if the plants are well grown however for the Complex.

Some growers will sell them ( I saw Petula's Sensation previously bloomed offered for a couple dozens US, with a picture of a black flower, but the plant shape and leaf type indicates me that they flowered without the black petals..., as an example).

You would be surprised at the price bargains some growers do to buy their stocks too. At a point, if the supplier has the capacity to make a profit and help some else get rid of his dustbin, many will do it. But to be offered 0.6 or 0.8 Eur per seedling by some 'professional growers' is not that uncommon, and that's their max price. At a point, people like me don't want, and don't need to supply this market. Others will catch up, and sell indeed primary hybrids ( like the urbanianum...), they germinate fast, grow fast, and anyway their name never appears, as they are the 'hidden supplier'.

In the 90's as well I remember by the Tonkin's they still had Charles E x Borneo unbloomed plants from the original cross. Norris Powell had the same. As long as they were green, and kind of thriving, they were kept and repotted religiously....

 

[Aaron888]

Don't worry too much about my rothschildianum plants... I have Mt Millais, some other FCC awarded, and a lot of award quality ones, from various sources. Even the BlackBird from TON, that came from me in fact, through the world. It was a selfing of 'Commander' AM/RHS.

Yes, there are quite a few crooks, some famous, that buy generic rothschildianum or other orchids, put nice pedigree, nice photos, and sell them to unsuspecting customers, and I am not dead wrong on the topic, I know much more than most people, but I can speak openly, as my income do not depend from them, it is a big difference.

Re-read the post I made with photos about the fucking urbanianum hybrid sold by 5 different nurseries, with 10 different parents, and a few different 'parent plant photos'. They were caught red-handed. They bought 'generic urbanianum' cheapcheapcheap, did put their awards and pedigree on them, sold them 'NBS' for 5-10 times the price paid. Profit overnight. Bad fuckup, it was an hybrid of urbanianum x Maudiae types, that originated from Schwerter ( who are very honest, and did not do anything wrong, to be correct...).

Fairrieanum, there was a pot plant batch not long ago. It ended up with 4 different 'breeders', 4 different parent photos, same pot, same substrate, same plant size... So no, I am not wrong.

At a point you do not know how the commercial trade works, but I do, because I did feed a very large part of it before, honestly.

When I see Japanese, Americans, coming to Waterdrinker pot plant wholesale market, buy NoID Complex, some yellow Pinnochio, etc... and I see few days/weeks later those plants in Japan for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, or in America as ' primulinum 4n', well, there is little doubt about the intentions of the buyers.

rothschildianum, I know there are masses of generic rothschildianum that were sold from Taiwan to Hawaii and the USA. I know as well that the entire batch of Rex x Mt Kinabalu was sold as Rex x Mt Millais. I was there, I saw it... and it is only one example. An easy one, because I have bloomed more seedlings of rothschildianum than most people too, from many different crosses, many different sources, perfectly well grown.

Well, if you remember the 90's there used to be rothschildianum 'Rex' x 'Mt Kinabalu' at the Orchid Zone, a few thousands seedlings. All of them were resold as 'Rex' x 'Mt Millais', which explains as well why some Rex x Mt Millais did have weird looking flowers....

Genetics cannot be just avoided. If I breed a delenatii and a Maudiae, I won't get a sanderianum, right ?

For rothschildianum, there are different colonies, and different types, historically. So when something blooms, in the size, and flower quality of a generic batch of rothschildianum that was in Kaoshiung, with FCC awarded parents that do not even remotely look close, and when I know that the 'breeder' did buy plants from that very same source, 1+1 = 2.

The other problem is that I have bloomed a lot of rothschildianum from seedlings. If we take the Orchid Inn rothschildianum, I had to grow some for a couple of friends as well, and I see the photos. None bloomed even remotely close to the parents.

Dave, 100% related to the parents.
Shen-Liu, 100% related to the parents,
Ruey-Hua, 100% related to the parents.
TON Val x Mt Millais original ones, 100% related to the parents.
Mine, 100% related to the parents, and I did quite a few different crosses over the years.

There are a few sources where zero were related to the parents. I got a lot of the Bear rothschildianum NBS about 10 years ago, I mean 100 plants, zero were remotely related, as an example. I had to dump them to the Vietnamese as pot plant... Orchid Inn, I have yet to bloom or see one that is even remotely close to the parents... Recently too, some Orchid Inn Multifloral hybrids did not bloom properly, with different pedigrees. Why are the mistakes on the tags identical to what happened in Taiwan?

There was, once upon a time, a picture of emersonii var. luteum. A golden yellow emersonii, in the 90's. It was offered to me and Boscha Popow back then for 12.000 US, and definitely worth it, directly from the owner. Alas, when it bloomed, it turned out to be a normal emersonii. After a bit of complain, a refund was accepted, in exchange for plants. A few years later, I get an offer for emersonii var. album, very rare... The same picture as emersonii luteum, but photoshopped white that time... When you scam, it is always best to have good memory. And that's a very famous 'Paphiopedilum reference' that offered the luteum, and the albino subsequently. What else can we expect?

If you have a good explanation, I am curious to hear that. And yes, you cannot breed a cat out of a dogs, that's what I call genetics.

Phragmipedium is indeed a vast topic, with polyploids, backcrosses of besseae and the dalessandroi types, infusion of schlimii that gave some peach colors, etc... and yes, a lot of it was fully intentional. It is difficult to understand why you would belive that paphs are to be different...

I am growing 2 Roths. one is just labeled Roth X sibling and I had gotten it probably about 5 years ago as a VERY small seedling (do not remember who I purchased it from tag doesn't have the grower on it) and knew that they were slow growing but did not know that they were THAT slow growing. When I found out that I could be growing into the double digits of years before it blooms the first time I bit the bullet and purchased a "near blooming sized roth about 3 years ago. It is labeled as Roth. 'Bear' x roth. 'New Bear' SM/TPS - Are these two plants I should worry about being "True" Roths? Thanks for any info.

 

[Ray]

@Roth Please try to control your use of profanity.

Personally, I don't care, but others have expressed otherwise.

 

[emydura]

I am growing 2 Roths. one is just labeled Roth X sibling and I had gotten it probably about 5 years ago as a VERY small seedling (do not remember who I purchased it from tag doesn't have the grower on it) and knew that they were slow growing but did not know that they were THAT slow growing. When I found out that I could be growing into the double digits of years before it blooms the first time I bit the bullet and purchased a "near blooming sized roth about 3 years ago. It is labeled as Roth. 'Bear' x roth. 'New Bear' SM/TPS - Are these two plants I should worry about being "True" Roths? Thanks for any info.

It should still be a roth. Xavier's accusation was that the roth. 'Bear' seedlings he flowered could not have come from the 'Bear' parent on the label. They have come from roth parents of inferior quality. But they were still roths. Good luck in flowering your roths. Hopefully for you, the seedling is from the parents on your label.

 

[Roth]

I am growing 2 Roths. one is just labeled Roth X sibling and I had gotten it probably about 5 years ago as a VERY small seedling (do not remember who I purchased it from tag doesn't have the grower on it) and knew that they were slow growing but did not know that they were THAT slow growing. When I found out that I could be growing into the double digits of years before it blooms the first time I bit the bullet and purchased a "near blooming sized roth about 3 years ago. It is labeled as Roth. 'Bear' x roth. 'New Bear' SM/TPS - Are these two plants I should worry about being "True" Roths? Thanks for any info.

They are rothschildianum, that was for sure, but they were not from the purported parents.

Well rothschildianum x sib is a honest tag in many cases... At least the seller does not make empty claims about their plants... Rothschildianum when they are deficient can be extremely slow growing, and take a very long time to suddenly grow again. They need a lot of fertilizer, especially with ammonium and/or urea, and then they become fast and easy to grow...

@Roth Please try to control your use of profanity.

Personally, I don't care, but others have expressed otherwise.

I did use it 2 times in a single post, which is not that much. You know, I prefer people who use profanity and who are honest to very polite, courteous people that do abominations ( in the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer, to name one out many...) or are crooks in their real life... This I can guarantee and vouch for it as well, from my former French Government work...

 

[Ray]

I did use it 2 times in a single post, which is not that much. You know, I prefer people who use profanity and who are honest to very polite, courteous people that do abominations ( in the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer, to name one out many...) or are crooks in their real life... This I can guarantee and vouch for it as well, from my former French Government work...

Hah! I spent most of my career working for what is now known as Total Energies. Lying, profanity, and smoking seemed to be part of the corporate culture, and maybe that's why "words" don't bother me so much, but that doesn't mean you or I should ignore folks that do.

 

[FrankRC]

It is difficult to understand why you would belive that paphs are to be different...

Because in the Phragmipedium world, the misrepresentations and fraud have been blatant and pervasive. There is one well known Phragmipedium breeder who has been unapologetically blatant and fraudulent in their labels and use of names and another who openly used to sell plants that they had been told are mislabeled and misrepresented and kept pushing the names in the pursuit of keeping sales up. In the Paph world the unapologetic fraud has been kept quiet, largely. There are no nurseries selling seedlings of Paph elliotianum insisting they are a new species and not Roth’s.

Like I said, if you know of a specific nursery cheating buyers by mislabeling plants we should all know.

Best,