paphiopedilum x cribbii

[Lance Birk]

Robert,

Everything you said relates also to man-nade hybrids.

I don't believe in "natural hybrid" paphiopedilums. Well, perhaps there are one, or three.

 

[Drorchid]

Robert,

Everything you said relates also to man-nade hybrids.

I don't believe in "natural hybrid" paphiopedilums. Well, perhaps there are one, or three.

I agree it also relates to man-made hybrids, but say if you make the primary hybrid of Paph. Conco-bellatulum by crossing Paph. concolor to Paph. bellatulum. Next you cross Paph. Conco-bellatulum back to one of it's parents say bellatulum, you cannot call it Paph. Conco-bellatulum anymore. It will now be called Paph. Concon Bell. If you have a natural population of the natural hybrid Paph. wenshanense one of the plants in the population could have the same genetic background as Paph. Concon Bell (75% bellatulum and 25% concolor), but it would still be called Paph. wenshanense.

I also agree if you would make the man made hybrid Conco-bellatulum, and sib two plants, you will get segregation of characteristics and some plants will look more like Paph. concolor, while others will look more like Paph. bellatulum, but it still will almost be impossible to create plants that look like the natural hybrid Paph. wenshanense, just because in nature those plants may have been selected for 1000's of years, and the natural selection pressures are different compared to man made selection pressures. Some genes may have mutated over time or due to selection pressures have been lost, so it will be almost impossible to make the Paph. wenshanense by starting from scratch.

Robert

 

[biothanasis]

Robert (drorchid) I agree with what you described!
Do you think pollinators of wild natural hybrid would not be appealed by the manmade one??? (Just asking...) TY

 

[ORG]

Dear Robert,
I agree with you. but you can also have the luck to find natural hybrids between wild collected plants, which look really very similar to the manmade hybrids.

Here the example Paph. X glanzii on the left side together with the artificial hybrid Paph. Lola Bird.

Dear Lance,
there exist really more than only 3 natural hybrids in Paphiopedilum.
In Phragmiedium just this time 2 natural hybrids are known.
The Phrag. X roethianum -hirtzii X longifolium - is very constant in his feature.

In other genera you have very often a hot discussion about the natural hybridization. In Europe the different species and varieties of Ophrys tend to make hybrids. The identification is really difficult especially because the hybridization is in more then one generation.

Here an example
Ophrys Xpietzschii-araneola X insectifera

and Ophrys X botteronii - apifera x sphegodes which I found last spring in Germany.

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[cnycharles]

Robert (drorchid) I agree with what you described!
Do you think pollinators of wild natural hybrid would not be appealed by the manmade one??? (Just asking...) TY

I don't know if pollinators would know the difference between a natural or man-made flower unless there were a color or fragrance difference. it would depend a lot on what key the pollinator 'looks' for when checking out flowers. I recently read about conservation efforts being done in south africa for the pure yellow variety of disa uniflora: the pollinator only settles on bright red flowers, so the same shape flower but yellow instead of red is ignored or very rarely visited or pollinated by the same insect according to the researchers. some flowers have patterns only visible under ultra violet light, so the man-made and natural hybrids could have different uv patterns though look the same to us, or a mm and nh could look exactly the same but since a mm hybrid could have been selected for form instead of survival or pollination factors, could have no fragrance to draw a pollinator. many factors involved

 

[biothanasis]

Thank you charles! So man made hybrids cannot be used with safety for conservation (reintroduction etc)!! I see...!!! TY again!!!

 

[Drorchid]

Dear Robert,
I agree with you. but you can also have the luck to find natural hybrids between wild collected plants, which look really very similar to the manmade hybrids.

Here the example Paph. X glanzii on the left side together with the artificial hybrid Paph. Lola Bird.

Olaf

I agree that those instances can occur (that was my first point in my first response), but most of the time I think the natural hybrid will look somewhat different compared to the Man-Made Hybrid, I think it all depends if it is a first generation natural hybrid, or a plant from a hybrid swarm (in this case those natural hybrids will have interbred with one another, and/or bred back to both parents for many generations).

Thanks for the pictures by the way.

Question what happens when you cross Paph. x glanzii with Paph. Lola Bird? Will this new hybrid still be Paph. Lola Bird, or will it get a new grex name? The plants of this new hybrid will look very similar to Paph. Lola Bird, and maybe hard to tell apart from the true Paph. Lola Bird.

Robert

 

[cnycharles]

Thank you charles! So man made hybrids cannot be used with safety for conservation (reintroduction etc)!! I see...!!! TY again!!!

sure! but you probably wouldn't want to introduce a hybrid outdoors anyway, introducing meaning planting out in places where you expect them to stay growing and propagate completely on their own and spread around. ... at least most people wouldn't think to do that, but doesn't absolutely mean that you shouldn't if you have a lot of land of your own (just like people that make huge wildflower gardens or long english gardens over wide areas). just wouldn't want to then try and claim that they are natural species or anything like that, just gardening. I know hardcore botanists and population ecologists would cringe to see lots of hybrids planted all over in the wild, would possibly mess up someone's tests

 

[ORG]

Dear Robert,
when you would cross a Paph. X glanzii with Paph. Lola Bird, then it will be seen by the Registrar like a selfing of both. No new name.

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[biothanasis]

sure! but you probably wouldn't want to introduce a hybrid outdoors anyway,.....hardcore botanists and population ecologists would cringe to see lots of hybrids planted all over in the wild, would possibly mess up someone's tests

I see...!!!!!