breeding with Darling tribe ?

[paworsport]

Hi All,

I heard from different grower that paph Darling is almost sterile and hybrids with Madame Martinet are rarely fertile.
What is your experience with that ?
Darling is a reluctant bloomer and it could explain the rarity of offsrpings from this plant.
Hadley Cahs in his web site said it coul be a new road to explore...:wink:

Philippe

 

[goldenrose]

Interesting -
one would think with callosum, delenatii & lawrenceanum, it wouldn't be.

 

[Brian Monk]

Interesting -
one would think with callosum, delenatii & lawrenceanum, it wouldn't be.

I hope that is sarcasm. Paph hybrids between Barbatas and Parvis are uncommon, and they are remarkably infertile. A good one is remarkable, but the best looking may not be the best parents. I too think these would be a fantastic direction, but for the genetic barriers.

For your edification:

delanatii has 30 hybrids with Barbatas with 5 further offspring, and 3 progeny in the F3 (though Demspots is suspect).
armeniacum has 3 hybrids with Barbatas with no further progeny
emersonii has 1 with 0 further offspring
malipoense has 2 with 0
micranthum has 5 with 0

 

[Ray]

Brian, I absolutely defer to your knowledge and expertise in the area, and agree that fertility is a significant issue, but might not the lack of subsequent generation of offspring also be attributable to other causes?

Relatively speaking, many of the parvi's have not be available for all that long (some were only described in the last 20-25 years), and paphs are not the most rapid to germinate and mature.

Maybe folks thing the crosses are ugly, and don't want to pursue it further.

 

[Ross]

When delenatii is bred with section Barbata, many of the flowers have a stunning "hot pink" color. If the form can be improved through subsequent crosses, while the pink is maintained, some very beautiful flowers could be produced. It sounds like a worthwhile project to attempt, but it may take multiple attempts before success is realized. And like Brian has mentioned fertility issues may make this more difficult, if not impossible. I would give the idea a shot. What's the worse that could happen? The capsule fails and the plant continues to grow toward its next blooming.

What type of parent were you considering crossing Paph Darling with, Philippe?

 

[paworsport]

HI All and

Thank you for your comments. In fact I was in the Philippe Lecoufle greenhouse last week and I saw a lot of Darling and Madame martinet in flower and the flowers and the leaves were so beautifull.

For the breeding I'm thinking to paph Macabre for example vini or not and today there are a lot of recent very good maudiae hybrids or a multi with a maudiae : roth maud, green horizon...

The idea is to transfer the pink color to something close in parentage wich could work with these hybrids.

What do you think ?

philippe

 

[Ross]

That would be a very logical choice. Vini x delenatii crosses have yielded beautiful pink magenta colors. With Barbata species on both sides of the cross, hopefully the color would still remain with a flower of better form AND easy to bloom.

 

[Brian Monk]

@ Ray - YEs, you are absolutely right. I suspect that there might be other problems with the produced grexes. As we all know, any given cross has a percentage of total dogs. That may be the case here, with most of the plants from the hybrid being total crap. Who would want to breed with that stuff?

I WOULD! I have long theorized that there are some plants resulting from every cross that are fertile, but they may not be award winners (they may not even be beautiful). The only way to pass on these genes in any combination is to use what breeds.

I agree that using these hybrids is a worthwhile pursuit. The flowers, when they are good, are fantastic!!! A large percentage of the delenatii x Barbata hybrids are awarded. The flowers are shocking pink, with all of the caretenoid and flavanoid pigments being suppressed, and the anthocyanins being particularly dominant. And all of this in a more vigorous plant that requires the less demanding growing regimen of a Barbata Paph!

The best you can do is use it over and over again in every possibility you can think of. I would start first with other Barbatas, particularly the vinis based on the idea that when it comes to anthocyanins, more is better! I would also try to breed back to the Parvis, especially anything with micranthum in it (again, more anthocyanin is better). When travelling outside of these two sections, I would go to the Brachys, especially bellatulum or niveum, or any hybrid that happens to breed. With section Paphiopedilum, I would consider any pink or white complex. This has been tried, and to some degree has been successful. Cochlos are a toss-up, though I suspect some nice things would result from the green-yellow suppression. Coryos and Pardalos are alos a toss up, but some Barbata x Coryo hybrids are stunning, looking something like a larger darker multi-floral vini Maudiae-type.

Good luck, and keep trying. Though I don't agree with most of his theories, Goodale Moir once said that until you have tried a cross at least three times both ways, you don't know if it will work.

 

[goldenrose]

Interesting -
one would think with callosum, delenatii & lawrenceanum, it wouldn't be.

I hope that is sarcasm......

Where did this come from? No it wasn't sarcasm, it was a simple statement. Did you understand that comment? There seemed to be a question regarding the fertility of Darling (Madame Martinet[callosum x delenatii] x lawrenceanum). How many crosses have been made using these 3 species???
Do you understand why I would think fertility wouldn't be a problem with Darling? There was no mention of parvis at that point. That's interesting info you provided, thanks for sharing your knowledge/expertise.

 

[Brian Monk]

Golden -

I am sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I understood the question as a simple "Does this hybrid produce offspring" question. And the answer is simple: yes, the inclusion of delenatii in a Barbata hybrid changes the resultant offspring's fertility drastically, and not for the better. They just don't breed well, if at all.

 

[goldenrose]

OK - no offense taken, sometimes I can be sensitive.
Still interesting, actually surprising that 2 barbatas can't get along with 1 little parvi! I'm going to take a try at a few crosses, I might be in for surprises! I'm kinda glad barbatas don't like me - go helenae!

 

[Brian Monk]

LOL. Maybe a Parvi with helenae?

 

[labskaus]

When you mention micranthum for more anthocyanins, why not use a micranthum cross which is even darker, like Kevin Porter? Or Magic Lantern, which may yield a better balanced shape than straight micranthum? Nobody has yet mentioned good old floppy, i.e. vietnamiense, which can be quite dark! Who doesn't have access to that species might want to go for Ho Chi Min?

 

[paworsport]

HI Carsten

thank you for your answer.
I have the Maude de Valec (pics on the site) open for 10 days now and ready to cross. I have some white complex (Skip Bartlett hybrids) close to open and hope to have it soon to try to cross the flower.
May be I will try with Jade Lauren Whales as pod parent, there is a lot of niveum inside to to his direct ancestor Albion and it could turn pink.