Taxonomy Dendr. cuthbertsonii vs. Dendr.agathodaemonis

[Roth]

Part #2

3) cuthbertsonii is never been a secret. It was just that the plant was generally referred to by most taxonomists (including myself) as D. sophronites ... and that was a mistake. Also Richard Warren has been propagating cuthbertsonii in all variations by seed for about 30 years now.
4) why would Popow and his colleagues have customers come and ask their money back? And if so, what does this have to do with the taxonomy of the species?
5) you talk of morphological differences .. but you don't say which ones.
6) No plant what so ever is being imported into Europe by the "tens of thousands" (except for Dutch tulips). ... There just isn't a market ... In the whole of Europe ther may be 200-300 people that would buy an imported plant ... if at all. Don't forget ... plenty of seedlings from Richard are now full grown and blooming plants.

(to be continued)

In fact none or Richard Warren plants are around anymore, or maybe a couple. They all come from Golden Gate Orchids, through Japan for some of them. Those big, many colored cuths with huge flowers that you see in Europe are in fact polyploids. It is unclear what their ploidy level is however, some are 4n, some are 3n. Some have been counted.

Second, for the flower quality, the award quality ones are the Papua New Guinea strains, that have not been imported for many years, over 15 for sure. The low quality ones come from Irian Jaya, where they are sold very cheaply.

There are some good colonies however close to Jayapura but the standard traders get their plants in bulk. They are divided when they arrive, otherwise they are indeed 30+ bulbs per plant.

agathodaemonis always came as red, same for the sophronits plants. There is no variation at all in those two types. I heard about an albino one once, very expensive, and two pink agathodaemonis, but never seen them by myself.

On the other side, dendrobium laevifolium is considered a distinct species, but there is less variation between laevifolium and cuthbertsonii than between plants sold as sophronitis and cuthbertsonii. By the way, laevifolium, in one Pacific island, has all the color forms, like cuthbertsonii, and some plants can be over 20 cm tall.

 

[Braem]

In fact none or Richard Warren plants are around anymore, or maybe a couple. They all come from Golden Gate Orchids, through Japan for some of them. Those big, many colored cuths with huge flowers that you see in Europe are in fact polyploids. It is unclear what their ploidy level is however, some are 4n, some are 3n. Some have been counted.

Second, for the flower quality, the award quality ones are the Papua New Guinea strains, that have not been imported for many years, over 15 for sure. The low quality ones come from Irian Jaya, where they are sold very cheaply.

There are some good colonies however close to Jayapura but the standard traders get their plants in bulk. They are divided when they arrive, otherwise they are indeed 30+ bulbs per plant.

agathodaemonis always came as red, same for the sophronits plants. There is no variation at all in those two types. I heard about an albino one once, very expensive, and two pink agathodaemonis, but never seen them by myself.

On the other side, dendrobium laevifolium is considered a distinct species, but there is less variation between laevifolium and cuthbertsonii than between plants sold as sophronitis and cuthbertsonii. By the way, laevifolium, in one Pacific island, has all the color forms, like cuthbertsonii, and some plants can be over 20 cm tall.

Well, I met Richard Warren last July in England and his business is going well ...

 

[Roth]

Well, I met Richard Warren last July in England and his business is going well ...

Yes, but his cuthbertsonii are to be found nowhere today. The remaining, I don't know, but for sure cuthbertsonii are either coming from Golden Gate/Japan/Ecuagenera strain ( that's the Golden Gate polyploid strains), or the wild today.

For the wild plants, the minimum order is one box 60x40x30 cm, or the collectors reject the order. Been there, seen that

 

[goods]

I would just like to say before I post a comment that I am nothing close to a taxonomist, and I have never even seen a D. cuthbertsonii or D.agathodaemonis in person. I am only going by the pictures and information in this thread. I have just noticed a few details in this thread that no one seems to have pointed out yet.

1) In the picture John Boy posted of D. agathodaemonis, the plant doesn't seem to have the "warty" leaves cuthbertsonii is known for. If I've not mistaken the "warts" are a distinctive feature of cuthbertsonii.

2) John Boy mentions that there is a temperature difference in the culture of the two. This indicates that the plants come from different altitudes. Couldn't this also indicate they come from different geographical regions and could possibly represent two distinct populations?

Again, these are just my observations.

 

[Braem]

I would just like to say before I post a comment that I am nothing close to a taxonomist, and I have never even seen a D. cuthbertsonii or D.agathodaemonis in person. I am only going by the pictures and information in this thread. I have just noticed a few details in this thread that no one seems to have pointed out yet.

1) In the picture John Boy posted of D. agathodaemonis, the plant doesn't seem to have the "warty" leaves cuthbertsonii is known for. If I've not mistaken the "warts" are a distinctive feature of cuthbertsonii.

2) John Boy mentions that there is a temperature difference in the culture of the two. This indicates that the plants come from different altitudes. Couldn't this also indicate they come from different geographical regions and could possibly represent two distinct populations?

Again, these are just my observations.

very well observed ...
the temperature difference is of little taxonomic importance as two different populations (possibly from diffrenth altitudes) do not mean that tther are two different species.
The warty leaves is more imprtant, but to make a judgement on that, there is need for mor that a picture.

 

[labskaus]

Just out of curiosity, I looked up what the taxonomists wrote in the old days. The descriptions of cuthbertsonii, sophronitis, trachyphyllum (not considered here) and asperifolium (not considered here) are freely available through online libraries.
Schlechter wrote: this species (sophronites) is cloesly related to cuthbertsonii, but differs in its larger flowers, a longer mentum and a narrower labellum. The cristall-like papilli on the ovary are significantly larger than in the other two species (i.e. cuthbertsonii and trachyphyllum). From the latin description: folii... papillis sparsis muriculatis superne asperatis, subacutis vel apiculatis;... i.e. the leaves were sparsly papillose. The stems were 0.7-1.5 cm long and 2.5-3.5 mm thick. The plant was described as up to 5 cm tall and caespitose, that means tufted. Leaves were 1-3 cm long and 2.5-4 mm broad. These measurements appear pretty close to my cuthbertsoniis, and there is no mention of elongated rhizomes like Xavier mentioned for the plants in trade.
Whatever these "sophronites of the trade" are, their habitus doesn't fit Schlechters concept.

D. trachyphyllum was described as having broad tightly pappilose leaves with flowers papillose on the outside. Ovarium similar to cuthbertsonii, but the flowers have narrower segments and are rose-red mit whitish petals and lip (whereas both cuthbertsonii and sophronite are scarlet red with yellow or orange lips, having a darker rim).
There are currently plants in the trade with flowers just like that.

Schlechter also wrote that he wasn't sure if agathodaemonis would fit in his section Cuthbertsonia, since J.J.Smith "hadn't mentioned the peculiar hairiness" and the habitus was a bit different. Schlechter wrote about the ovary, because he based his section Cuthbertsonia on the "peculiar hairiness of the ovary". Smith didn't write about the ovary in his description of agathodaemonis. He also did not mention the flower colour at all. He wrote somewhere else that most of his descriptions were based on samples in formaline... But: if the type specimens in some herbarium (Bogor, or lost?) or a drawing of it, don't show colour, colour can't be used to differentiate agathodaemonis from cuthbertsonii. Doesn't matter if there's a dark rim on the labellum or not. And last:
Terrrestre. Caules ramosissimi, tenues, internodii ad c. 0.4 cm longis. Folia parva, lanceolata, brevi-acutata vel mucronata, superne ciliolata, c. 0.8-1.4 cm longa.
That's the words of J. J. Smith he used for describing the habitus of agathodaemonis. The leaves were described as being ciliate (hairy) on the upper side. Smooth leaves is not in his concept for agathodaemonis.

Finally: Dwarf, tufty, except the calyx-tube glabrous;... Leaves small, broad-linear, narrowed towards both ends, rather acute;... That's the words of F.v. Mueller when he described the plant and leaves of cuthbertsonii. Notice anything on papillose or ciliate? These peculiar "stalked glandules" are typically on the ovary in all members of section Cuthbertsonia and may, or may not (according to Schlechter) be on the leaves as well.

I'd love to see drawings of all the types.

My personal impression: the plants in trade as agathodaemonis and maybe sophronites as well look quite different from what is in trade as cuthbertsonii. Wether they are different species, or varieties/forms of cuthbertsonii is not up to me to decide. The names agathodaemonis and sophronites are not correctly applied to these plants.
I think I've read in some travel account that smooth and rough-leaved forms sometimes grow together. I've seen only one, non-representative import from Indonesia, which contained a lot of small-growing (and blooming) plants with smooth -to sparsely papillose plants and flowers with or without a dark rim on the lip. The plants were growing together on the very same branches. Some were sold as agathodaemonis, the others as cuthbertsonii.

You may notice by now that I'm in favour of a broader species concept for cuthbertsonii...

 

[Wendelin]

Thanks for putting all this informations together, Carsten. I find it very useful.

This is a normal Dendr. cuthbertsonii Pink

thick, rounded bulbs with papillose leafs

This one is bought as Dendr. cuthbertsonii like

small narrow bulbs, and leafes are also slim and rather nonpapillose

Perhaps John Boy can post a similar picture of his agathodaemonis for comparrison.

 

[Roth]

Thanks for putting all this informations together, Carsten. I find it very useful.

This one is bought as Dendr. cuthbertsonii like

small narrow bulbs, and leafes are also slim and rather nonpapillose

I got the same recently too, the later type comes from Wamena, and usually has pink flowers. I think it is only a cuthbertsonii for that type, but not agathodaemonis or sophronitis.

 

[Braem]

Thanks for putting all this informations together, Carsten. I find it very useful.

This is a normal Dendr. cuthbertsonii Pink

thick, rounded bulbs with papillose leafs

This one is bought as Dendr. cuthbertsonii like

small narrow bulbs, and leafes are also slim and rather nonpapillose

Perhaps John Boy can post a similar picture of his agathodaemonis for comparrison.

From seeing those pictures, I tend to agree on two different species ...

 

[labskaus]

Mrs. Elsner has these on her list (I assume, Wendelin, yours is from her). The bicolor flower on her web site is what I mentioned above as fitting to the description of D. trachyphyllum. The habitus of this one is quite different from Schlechters description.
I think this is the same:

http://www.pbase.com/glazemaker/image/116906259

and this too

http://www.pbase.com/rogiervanvugt/image/126941064

 

[Wendelin]

The plant is from Mrs. Elsner, yes.
The pink/white flower shown on her Internetshop was given by the vendor in PNG as she told me.There is another flowerpicture of this batch blooming in Germany and that one is white with a hint of purple. I'm not the owner of that picture but I'm sure by the end of the week I'll be able to post it here.

Carsten ,I know these two links you posted and I agree with you that they could much likely be the same type than the ones Mrs. Elsner is selling.

 

[Roth]

The plant is from Mrs. Elsner, yes.
The pink/white flower shown on her Internetshop was given by the vendor in PNG as she told me.There is another flowerpicture of this batch blooming in Germany and that one is white with a hint of purple. I'm not the owner of that picture but I'm sure by the end of the week I'll be able to post it here.

Carsten ,I know these two links you posted and I agree with you that they could much likely be the same type than the ones Mrs. Elsner is selling.

It is not from PNG at all, but from Wamena, I have been there a few months ago, and the photo is from the reseller in Indonesia, I ll post some more this week of that form. There are several different species growing together, including those cuthbertsonii/agathodaermonis, and cuthbertsonii/sophronitis but the hybrids are very, very rare. The one from your picture ('cuthbertsonii like' as per the seller advertisement in Indo) occurs with vexillarius blue, brevicaule, decockii, and a couple other things. As a note too, I have seen thousands of brevicaule, thousands of decockii, including in boxes, or on the same branch in the wild, all in bloom, but I have seen very few hybrids, maybe 5 plants total, despite the fact that they are in bloom at the same time, and the orange color of the flowers is exactly the same ( but the flower structure is different as it its size).

Edit: just had a look at Elsner price for those cuthbertsonii like and the vexillarius, they are, to say the least, extremely expensive, as they come mixed by box. One box would be worth about 75,000eur at that retail price...

 

[Wendelin]

HI Roth!
I'd be very happy to see more pics of this plant and the flowers.

I don't quite understand what you are talking about hybrids. Are you assuming the last one ,from Wamena, could be a hybrid?

 

[Wendelin]

These are the pics from Mrs. Elsners Dendrobiums that bloomed in Germany.
Perhaps the lack of colour is due to opening up in a box without light.

 

[Roth]

These are the pics from Mrs. Elsners Dendrobiums that bloomed in Germany.
Perhaps the lack of colour is due to opening up in a box without light.

I know the plants have been screened by someone in Indonesia before they were exported to the wholesaler ( Elsner was one of the retailers)

:evil::evil::evil:, I visited the seller in Indonesia some months ago. I ll post a picture of mine this week.

 

[Wendelin]

I got them all together now

Sold as Dendr. agathodaemonis

Sold as 'like cuthbertsonii' and looks like a hybrid between the two of them

Sold as Dendr. cuthbertsonii