K-Lite has been around a few years now... updates?

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Lance,
I asked Jim Hausermann a lot of questions re: their culture and he said they were fertilizing with a urea based fertilizer at a [N] of 170 ppm (!) and a TDS close to 500 ppm (!!!) This is certainly contrary to the low-dose direction, regardless of natural habitat conditions.

A TDS of 650ppm was always my target when we were growing commercially. Plants grew great but they were not held long term. The idea was grow them up fast and sell them. It's not too much if you have optimum greenhouse conditions and the nutrients happen to be in the correct ratio balance. That means balanced between water, fertilizer and growing media.

When asked whether they had done any testing of low K fertilizers, he said they had done so on their Phalaenopsis and the result was yellowing of the leaves and shorter flower stems, so they discontinued the use of the product.

I wonder if they used the same 500 tds for the low K or if they reduced to dose and it was to low? Yellow leaves and short flower stems is not recorded result with K level trials for Phals. But it obviously was for them. :)
Could be something related to CO2 levels need to be higher when K is lower when the light is bright. There are too many possible variations to ever know the answer.
 
Yellow leaves and short flower stems is not recorded result with K level trials for Phals.

Yes it is. And not just for Phals


Could be something related to CO2 levels need to be higher when K is lower when the light is bright. There are too many possible variations to ever know the answer.

No there isn't. The K/N ratio is too low. Very simple! There is no need (or use) in looking for other explanations
 
In my opinion, k-lite was a leap forward,

But what do you base that opinion on Bjorn? You can't base an opinion on some incomplete theory. You need to look at the overwhelming evidence. It has been known for decades that too much K can lead to problems in some circumstaces. But not the kind of concentrations we use on orchids. Now people are beginning to see problems with very low K. Adding ammonium or Urea to K-lite will make it even worse. All trials with orchids have found K levels should be around 50%(more or less) of the N. Otherwize you get early leaf drop, fewer flowers etc.

After a lot of consideration, I can only come to the conclusion that k-lite was (generally) a leap backwards.
 
Question to growers that noticed poor(er) growth with K-lite or yellowing leaves....

Did you notice any difference in disease or pest problems during the time you used K-lite?

I started using K-lite last fall when I got my r/o system. Into the first of this year, I had a lot of poorly growing Catts. As a matter of fact, I lost a lot of plants - which surprised me. Seedlings that should have started taking off when the days got longer were struggling. Phrags are struggling. (just got Paphs w the recent auction so can't say). Last week I stopped using K-lite. I didn't see this post till this evening - it's been a long week.

Weak, spindly growth and in some instances followed by rot. Nothing had changed but the fertilizer and r/o water. I was thrilled to not have the salt build-up using the r/o water. But something had gone wrong.

I am now using Miracle gro for orchids (I had invested in K-lite after using up my other fertilizers), which I had on hand.
 
One thing I have learned the past year is that, yes, nutrition is a big part of good orchid culture. But it's not nearly the most important part. A lot of people, including myself, expect great results by changing their fertilizer when their basic culture (watering, light, air circulation, temps, etc) is sub-optimal. For me I think the biggest change I have made is to water more often. I have discovered that I've always been an underwaterer. I just noticed that everytime I water, even with just tap water, my plants green up and grow like crazy. Changing to urea-based feed just enhanced the results.
 
But what do you base that opinion on Bjorn? You can't base an opinion on some incomplete theory. You need to look at the overwhelming evidence. It has been known for decades that too much K can lead to problems in some circumstaces. But not the kind of concentrations we use on orchids. Now people are beginning to see problems with very low K. Adding ammonium or Urea to K-lite will make it even worse. All trials with orchids have found K levels should be around 50%(more or less) of the N. Otherwize you get early leaf drop, fewer flowers etc.

After a lot of consideration, I can only come to the conclusion that k-lite was (generally) a leap backwards.

Mike, might have phrased myself a bit imprecise, but I do think the the k-lite thinking was beneficial. It made me reconsider the whole fertiliser issue, and showed it was possible and perhaps even beneficial to lower some nutrients while having high vales of e.g. Calcium. After some time using too much fertiliser I realised that the plants benefits from a leaner diet, and actually, in my case they started growing better, not only greened up when I lowered the TDS. But you may be right that k-lite is a bit too low in Potassium;)
 
One thing I have learned the past year is that, yes, nutrition is a big part of good orchid culture. But it's not nearly the most important part. A lot of people, including myself, expect great results by changing their fertilizer when their basic culture (watering, light, air circulation, temps, etc) is sub-optimal. For me I think the biggest change I have made is to water more often. I have discovered that I've always been an underwaterer. I just noticed that everytime I water, even with just tap water, my plants green up and grow like crazy. Changing to urea-based feed just enhanced the results.

Fully agree:) keep them wet if they come from the islands, have a drier winter if they are from the monsoon areas. I water almost every day and my plants are never totally dry. And another thing, fertilise in all water, but very weakly;)
 
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After some time using too much fertiliser I realised that the plants benefits from a leaner diet, and actually, in my case they started growing better, not only greened up when I lowered the TDS.

Yep I remember Mr Rentoul mentioning that he fed only twice a year with organic. Once in Spring and once at the end of summer and that's it! (but that's with added leafmould or fern fiber etc in the mix)

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where it was speculated that higher Ca leaf concentration (from low EC) may be due greater mass flow of water into the plant bringing the Ca with it.
So feeding low NPK increases Ca content in the plant. But the high Ca leaf content of plants in the habitat is not due to low K (ratio) but to the fact that the Ca is largely imoblie and not leached anywhere near as much as K.
That's why we see higher Ca in the leaf litter compared to K and also why we see a massive influx of K (relatively) in the throughfall and stemflow in the forests. So if you take an average over the whole year, the orchids are usually getting as much K as N. And that's why K-lite is so unbalanced. (let alone the NH4 and S)
That's the way I see things anyway.
 
One thing I have learned the past year is that, yes, nutrition is a big part of good orchid culture. But it's not nearly the most important part. A lot of people, including myself, expect great results by changing their fertilizer when their basic culture (watering, light, air circulation, temps, etc) is sub-optimal. For me I think the biggest change I have made is to water more often. I have discovered that I've always been an underwaterer. I just noticed that everytime I water, even with just tap water, my plants green up and grow like crazy. Changing to urea-based feed just enhanced the results.
I think this is one of the most astute comments I've seen in a while.

Considering the environment in which most orchids have evolved, logically, watering frequency is fairly high and nutrition is fairly low on their "Maslow's Heirarchy".

Your plants will grow much better if watered frequently, no matter what fertilizer you may be using.

Oh - and by the way, I am not seeing shorter flower spikes at all. In fact, I see just the opposite.
 
Yes, i'm writing this, and it is long as usual and beware it's likely boring :)

From my limited observations, Klite was better than the 13-2-13 and the rest of whatever I do to grow, and Klite did show an improvement. It is unfortunate that I had to move so many times, had landlords that disagreed with higher humidity in their buildings or some who kept me moving my carts to places where they wouldn't prosper etc and too many competing interests. With the plug feed (13213) you would think it would be better having lower amounts of macros and lower k than quite a few Hort fertilizers for growing annuals and perennials; plants decreased in size and would look pale and yellow, lost plants.
After move and started using Klite with same water especially with phrag seedlings sitting in slight water always things looked better. Unfortunately I lost a bunch of plants because first place I had them before setting up light cart was too dark and plants too wet. During both previous times I also was trying a repot using that calcium sand for aquariums and pH was getting too high. After moving to north jersey I had to move plants a few times but when was able to have plants in one spot I used the well water and Klite and plants looked good while I was there. Here I largely removed the media with that sand which I'm sure helped, it was burning plants up. The well water in that area had lots of sulphur, you could smell it; I think lite fertilizer with the sulfur was a good thing.
From what I've seen here there are more people who wanted to try this because they were not satisfied with what was happening with their plants. My take at the start was that it was and is a likely good starting point, and it was going to need tweaking to add or adjust things to be a good base fertilizer for generalist orchid growers. The fact is that there never will be any one fertilizer which will work for every genera and conditions. At the greenhouses in Utica we had very clean water and at a minimum at the fert injector station there were four barrels of different concentrated fertilizers and depending on seasonal crops, those would get changed, and during a growth cycle you would likely alternate these for the best growth and flowering response.
Other nurseries including the ones in north jersey had to inject acid into their water to get the best range for their crops; where I am now the water at work is too acidic.
Expecting one unadjusted fertilizer to work for all orchids or other plants is unrealistic. Won't work. Railing on any particular type as awful and unusable (Klite or any other) is extremely unproductive. Trying things to find a better method or approach is what should be done. Observing what works for who during any general trial and what doesn't is extremely valuable, even if not scientific or unpublished. Who is going to pay for a scientific trial for thousands of different orchids for us to read? Very few.
From what I've seen if you don't have the right pH then it doesn't matter if you have the right amount or balance of food or water. If you don't have the right air movement and water available at the right time, with the proper warmth and light, then unhappy plants react by slowing stopping or dying. If you have a really good climate though with lots of warmth and sun plus the right pH and you can be liberal with the hose often the plants can adjust to food as long as you don't overwhelm them.
So growers need a base they can start with, to adjust and add for the conditions they have, and they are going to have to research to find out what environmental conditions their plants need. One unadjusted food isn't going to be the answer in most cases. I think Klite 1 is a good start, but in concept, for most people. I think MSU was on the right track knowing that different starting water necessitates different base feeds. If you have certain water conditions and pH then you need a different base. I think this feed needs some more micros or as a package supply a packet if micros separately so that a given level could be added to your stock after you've set your concentration of macros; this way you aren't thinning them out too much if you are using a very low rate of whatever is coming out of the bag or bottle. And every plant grower should have some way to test watering pH and adjust. Think a little more phosphorus and potassium would help, more sulfur also.
The stories of people not ever fertilizing or only using calcium nitrate and having good results is that you can have success with very little or limited range food. Often those who have broad success have great conditions and they can liberally water with whatever and things look happy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Here's my 2 cents on what's going on with K-lite and consistent use in minimal amounts. I believe this is why many are seeing yellowing leaves.

First, I haven't seen any mention of what the Ph is. Without a neutral Ph - say around 6 to around 7.5 - the orchids may not be able to take up the nutrients in the fertilizer solution regardless of how much fertilizer is used.

It is particularly important to check Ph when using RO water because of its lack of buffering capacity. Adding the smallest amounts of acid based fertilizers can dramatically reduce the Ph and make any fertilizer ineffective. Probably the same with basic fertilizers.

Assuming Ph is in a proper range, and the other conditions are good for orchid growing, if the orchid is not getting enough fertilizer to support nice, healthy, green growth the newer growth will try to get the NPK, Ca, Mg, and micronutrients from the nutrients in the existing leaves. A problem is that Ca and micronutrients are too large to pass into the new growth. They are established in the new growth when the new growth happens and they stay there.

Thus, when underfertilized orchids don't have enough food to produce good, healthy new growth they have nowhere to get enough nutrition and produce poor new growth that tries to cannabalise the old growth to get what it needs. This nutrition deficiency obviously can't work for any period of time. Once the N is taken from the old leaves and since there's not enough N in the orchids regular diet, the leaves yellow.

I really don't think it has a lot to do with the amount of NH3 or NH4, as long as there's enough N. In my observation, NH4 will cause rapid, yet soft growth and should not be used during dormant or slow growing months. NH3 is okay for year round growing, but orchids will be larger and flower better if NH4 is given during the growing season.

The fertilizer itself is not that important as long as it is complete - i.e. contains all the micronutrients, etc. - and there is enough of it.

I have not had any problems watering any orchids using a Ph of 6.5 and an e.c. of about .8 - 1 in the spring and fall and an e.c. of .5 or below during the summers and winters - (the seasons the orchids aren't growing).

I grow Paphs, Phrags, Phals, Catts, Dens, Ascos, Lycastes, and many other genera. No Masd or Pleuros. I literally have a few thousand orchids.

This year I was in 3 shows and got a best hybrid, best Catt. species and best Oncidium, and best Maxillaria (Lycaste) in show. I also got a CCM on a Phrag. I'm not telling you this to brag (well let's be honest - maybe a little) but to give proof that my growing method works, and I believe will work for anyone.

It is incomprehensible that orchids will grow better with fertilizer amounts like 10ppmN when they can tolerate more. Every other plant I've ever grown has done better with more fertilizer - UP TO A POINT. Grow any two plants next to each other. Give one 10ppmM and the other the max amount recommended for it and let us which grows better.

The amount of fertilizer that should be applied is the amount the orchids can take without hurting them in order to produce nice strong green growth. That's where the art of growing orchids overtakes the science. As I said above, for me it's a Ph of 6.5 with an ec of near 1 during the growing months and half that during the winter. You can be assured that yours won't be far from that.
 
It is my experience that the use of nitrate as the only source of nitrogen for
paphs. can be problematic.
 
I usually don't post my growing because I don't like to get into debates about what caused what. I am pretty sure in my growing conditions what I see everyday. I tried lowering my K, then my fertilizer concentration then my urea supplementation after reading all the hoopla. I am so sorry I did. I got decreased light tolerance. I kept having to decrease light on time and distance from the light on the indoor orchids. Decreased growth and to top it off a pretty severe fungal infection. This is only after maybe 6 months. I also supplement with co2 and grow at higher temperatures than most and I used to get amazing growth with rich green leaves. The plants couldn't handle it. I went from having amazing growth to problem after problem. I have gone back to a balanced fertilizer at 300ppm supplementing again with seaweed and urea. The plants seem to be recovering but it was a nightmare. I really am disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a trend that I read about and others told me about when I had a system that was working well for myself and some other amazing growers.
 
It is my experience that the use of nitrate as the only source of nitrogen for
paphs. can be problematic.

I agree. I used to be urea crazy. Never had a problem. Then I reduced K. Then I started having problems. Blamed it on the UREA. So I decreased fertilizer concentration totally after reading these forums. Had more problems. Read all this low light stuff so I decreased daylight which helped. Then my leaf growth started stunting. Then color kept getting less rich. Then I got a nasty fungal infection. That was it. I have gone back to my old regimen and in 2 months they are mostly looking great again.
 
Without a neutral Ph - say around 6 to around 7.5 - the orchids may not be able to take up the nutrients in the fertilizer solution regardless of how much fertilizer is used.
May I ask the basis of that statement?

The only study I have ever seen relating to pH and nutrient uptake was a test of one fertilizer passed through soil. In the case of soil, which has a CEC orders of magnitude higher than do orchid media, the pH affects the ion trapping capacity of the soil, and has no known impact on how the roots can-, or cannot take up the ions.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com
 
May I ask the basis of that statement?

As stated, Ray, this is from my experience.

I would think that logic would dictate you can't grow at Ph 2 or 12, so somewhere in the middle should work. It does for me. It would be interesting to see what happens if orchids were grown at 2 or 12.

Just out of curiosity, do you know the Ph of the rainwater that trickled down the tree you cited in prior discussions? I forget what the TDS was at on that water, but I remember it was really low.

Also, do you know what the Ph of rainwater is? I'd be curious to know that too. If it's really high or low, I'd probably rethink my Ph limits, but they really work.

My purpose for posting wasn't to cite any scientific studies, etc. or to have any other basis other than personal experience.
 
I usually don't post my growing because I don't like to get into debates about what caused what. I am pretty sure in my growing conditions what I see everyday. I tried lowering my K, then my fertilizer concentration then my urea supplementation after reading all the hoopla. I am so sorry I did. I got decreased light tolerance. I kept having to decrease light on time and distance from the light on the indoor orchids. Decreased growth and to top it off a pretty severe fungal infection. This is only after maybe 6 months. I also supplement with co2 and grow at higher temperatures than most and I used to get amazing growth with rich green leaves. The plants couldn't handle it. I went from having amazing growth to problem after problem. I have gone back to a balanced fertilizer at 300ppm supplementing again with seaweed and urea. The plants seem to be recovering but it was a nightmare. I really am disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a trend that I read about and others told me about when I had a system that was working well for myself and some other amazing growers.

Perhaps what appeared as a 'decreased light tolerance' was just your bog standard nutrient deficiency.
My paphs. do not appear to be a follower of Mies van der Rohes precept that less is more.
For those using 10ppm N all I can say is tick tock.
 

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