Wrongly named Paph trend.

[Roy]

As I mentioned in a posting from Candace, I bought some seedling Paphs that on arrival I noted some differences in the leaves to what I thought they should look like. Here are a few to give you an idea of what I found.
These are supposed to be dark to vini color Maudiaes.

This one is also listed as a Maudiae type but the leaves a 3 times thicker and look like a Brachy hybrid, yes / no ???

 

[rdlsreno]

For the clear green ones, lets hope they are Paph. roths!

Ramon

 

[Ernie]

Look like a handful of multiflorals or complexes. The last looks like a brachy by something else.

-Ernie

 

[SlipperKing]

You got took Roy. I assume you don't do business with this firm anymore.

 

[Roy]

You got took Roy. I assume you don't do business with this firm anymore.

Very correct, the only thing that would I love to happen is one to flower and be awarded, hopefully with the correct name. I have all the catalogs from the nursery so unless they were wrongly named originally, I can cross reference against their list for the right names.

 

[Candace]

The original plants didn't come from Asia did they? I hope you got them cheap? Although that still doesn't make up for the time and bench space to get them to blooming size. Getting an awardable, recognizable plant out of the bunch would be nice!

 

[Roth]

Very correct, the only thing that would I love to happen is one to flower and be awarded, hopefully with the correct name. I have all the catalogs from the nursery so unless they were wrongly named originally, I can cross reference against their list for the right names.

The original plants didn't come from Asia did they? I hope you got them cheap? Although that still doesn't make up for the time and bench space to get them to blooming size. Getting an awardable, recognizable plant out of the bunch would be nice!

There is a trend for most of the paphs suppliers to buy from a handful of wholesalers, sometimes with many people inbetween. One example, Sun Moon was buying from several people, who were buying in turn from several others people. It was assumed ( like for some Dutch nurseryes) that the origin of the plant is so dilute that the original dishonest people will never be found, whilst doing profit. It is most of the time true.

But looking at the pics and the supposed crosses, I would say that the seller is everything but knowledgeable. That's another trend for many people to start selling orchids because there is a good profit when knowing the "sources", and they do not even think about studying what they sell. The put money on the table, get paphs or veggies, and sell with a profit. It is saddening, but it is like that. And the genuine breeders cannot make profit anymore, as some unreliable sources offer as an example paph wentworthianum (in Taiwan) for US$15 (in fact a type of hookerae, there are only few wentworthianum really available), many resellers bought them, sold them for US$80, and a genuine wentworthianum is at least 100$ wholesale. People who want to sell the authentic plant collapse, and the fake plants flood the market.

 

[Roy]

There is a trend for most of the paphs suppliers to buy from a handful of wholesalers, sometimes with many people inbetween. One example, Sun Moon was buying from several people, who were buying in turn from several others people. It was assumed ( like for some Dutch nurseryes) that the origin of the plant is so dilute that the original dishonest people will never be found, whilst doing profit. It is most of the time true.

The original plants didn't come from Asia did they? I hope you got them cheap? Although that still doesn't make up for the time and bench space to get them to blooming size. Getting an awardable, recognizable plant out of the bunch would be nice!

As I understand it, Sun Moon is not well liked here from the Phalaenopsis sold here as M/clones, nothing like what they were bought as. I have heard their Paphs are the same.
The crosses in the Paphs I pictured could be from anywhere, there were some imported and locally produced seedlings in the mix. Some of the crosses were from the USA as the names could be linked to catalogs there. I think its the nursery of purchases fault for the mix up.
Oh! found one of the plants tonight thats supposed to be a P.Watercolor Artist, it looks like a P. charlesworthii as per other seedlings I have of the same size.

 

[Roth]

The crosses in the Paphs I pictured could be from anywhere, there were some imported and locally produced seedlings in the mix. Some of the crosses were from the USA as the names could be linked to catalogs there. I think its the nursery of purchases fault for the mix up.
Oh! found one of the plants tonight thats supposed to be a P.Watercolor Artist, it looks like a P. charlesworthii as per other seedlings I have of the same size.

Unfortunately you can never link plants that way. Many companies get seedlings of AxB with unnamed parents from Taiwan, and put nice clonal name, preferably awarded, to sell them on the retail market. That's a very bad trend as well that is going on increasingly.

On the other side, some famous companies (JEM Orchids put a letter on their website a while back) buy trays of young paph seedlings, many various crosses, and end up with a handful of crosses with many, many different names. In the case of JEM, all the sanderianum hybrids sold turned out to be Jerry Spence ( if I remember correctly ?) or another cheap hybrid of the same type.

I will not be the lawyer of Sun Moon, but regarding the phals mericlone, the people who know the back of the scene know very well that there is no 100% reliable company in the phal business in Taiwan. They buy and sell to each other like crazy, have bad lab practice resulting in lots of mutations. And some harlequins proved impossible to clone without somaclonal variation. It is due to the presence of micronuclei and viruses. The formers are basically kind of satellite nuclei, with genetic material expelled from the main nucleus. The latter are various kind of viruses, that can enhance the strenght of the mutations. Sometimes after cloning, some harlequins revert back to a "non-harlequin standard" type of Phalaenopsis. It is quite normal actually. I had to clone some harlequins phals, but I refused. After further studies, they were all infected with a kind of virus or another ( barley mosaic virus, tomato ringspot virus), usually very "exotic" virus, not popular in the orchid world, and several harlequins seedlings turned out to be mosaic plants (I was really puzzled by that actually !).

 

[NYEric]

What do the tags say they are?

 

[Candace]

Sanderianum, that's another complaint of cattleya collectors. Many of the cattleya clones on the market today from Asia are correctly named but are full of virus! So, you get the named orchid you paid for with a bonus no one wants. The labs don't test for virus before cloning a plant a trillion times.

Thanks for pointing out what happens behind the scenes. I was focusing my frusteration mainly at the flasking folks, but it seems to be more complicated than that.

 

[Roy]

What do the tags say they are?

Paphs, Catts or Phals ????

 

[NYEric]

IN the Paph photos I noticed each pot has a tag. What do the tags say they are?

 

[Roy]

IN the Paph photos I noticed each pot has a tag. What do the tags say they are?

In pic order, they are :
Bar Maud
Maudiae Superior x Ebony Queen
Red Glory x Fremont Peak
Black Stallion
Raven x gloriosum

 

[SlipperKing]

You're right Roy, not even close. Plants don't match tags at all.

 

[paphlady]

The last pic looks like a cochlopetalum (sequential) by a brachy.

It's interesting to know the different "business practices" people are pulling. Is there a way to post info on which nurseries to look out for without backlash? I don't have experience buying from unknown sources, but it would be nice to be aware of sketchy businesses/characters/etc.

 

[NYEric]

In my house the gremlins would be responsible for the mis-tagged plants!

 

[goldenrose]

What a shame! :sob: Hopefully one plant will match one of those tags.

 

[Roy]

What a shame! :sob: Hopefully one plant will match one of those tags.

Rose, the plants didn't cost that much individually though it would have been nice to get somewhat correct names. I think in fact that its more exciting waiting for them to flower to see what I have, instead of knowing the cross and be disappointed flowering a poor one from high expectations of a great cross.
At the least, they will provide some interesting pics of the forum.

 

[Roth]

The last pic looks like a cochlopetalum (sequential) by a brachy.

Is there a way to post info on which nurseries to look out for without backlash?

It is a hit and miss with all the nurseries. Even if you take Orchids Limited, that is an excellent nursery, if you were unlucky to buy one bellatulum album from one peculiar cross, one sanderianum Deep Pockets x Jacob's Ladder, and one paph zieckianum about 10 years ago, you would say they are the worst cheater you ever made. Yet, Orchids Limited got all of those plants from the Orchid Zone at that time. They are not responsible for what they resell ( though it seems Orchids Limited is breeding most of the paphs offered).

Now the aftercare, Orchids Limited would replace damaged/incorrectly named plants, some others nurseries would still have them on their pricelist, even today ( some companies did offer the fake orchid zone sands until about 3 years ago, knowingly !).

Many of the cattleya clones on the market today from Asia are correctly named but are full of virus! So, you get the named orchid you paid for with a bonus no one wants. The labs don't test for virus before cloning a plant a trillion times.

Most of the cattleya/phalaenopsis and a good part of the paphs are not made in Taiwan anymore. They are made in gigantic obscure labs in China. Second, most professionnal grower do not care about viruses, they even tell you that you can overcome the symptoms with feeding (that's correct), and the plant is still "marketable". To a certain extent it is true. Next, the first steps of growing of the Taiwanese nurseries are now done, for most of it, in China, where the workers just repot, cut, and whatever, but have NO clue about what a sickness is.

Rose, the plants didn't cost that much individually though it would have been nice to get somewhat correct names.

That's exactly what the seller expect. The plants are "so cheap" that there is no complain, so they can still make profit, and do more scam. If I offer you a sanderianum blooming size at 6$, and it turns out to be a St Swithin, you will not be too angry. Yet I would make profit, because no one wanted to buy those St Swithin, even at 4$.