What is the real Paph primulinum?

[Drorchid]

In a previous thread (http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13973) we had a discussion regarding Paph. primulinum. According to sanderianum a lot of the primulinum's on the market are not true primulinum's but at one point or other have been crossed with different species (either moquetteanum or glaucophyllum) resulting in larger more fuller flowers. Here is his last post:

The problem with those different Pinnochio is that there are many type of crosses under that name in the pot-plant trade. By choosing the proper one, people can sell glaucophyllum album, or the rarer, more expensive moquetteanum album, or primulinum under steroids.

To sum up:
- Pinnochio F1 = primulinum x glaucophyllum or moquetteanum at that time. No use for the yellow scam, they are all colored.
- The selfings of those ones, and their selfings. Great for the primulinum 4n/selected primulinum scam.
- The 4n made by Floricultura and their selfings. Glaucophyllum album or primulinum, very very selected.
- The Pinnochio x primulinum, perfect for a part of the seedlings, primulinum that no one can compete with.

People forget that primulinum from the jungle, 20 years ago, was a quite gracile species, small flowers, fragrant, and with very, very distinctive leaves.

I try to find out a picture of a plant, the closest I can come by on the internet is that one:

http://aqorchids.com/Seedling_primulinum.jpg

It would be the maximum size of a primulinum, but it should be a bit darker green to say the least. The leaf and plant shape look more correct.

For the flower shape, it would be more like that:

http://gardenbreizh.org/modules/pix/cache/photos_160000/GBPIX_photo_165955.jpg

About 10-15 years ago, both Lecoufle and the Jardins du Luxembourg still had original plants documented back to Kolopaking in the 70's. There were maybe 20-30 different ones, leaves ranging from 15x1cm up to maximum 18-20 x 2 cm for one specific plant. But most had very smallish leaves, and this flower shape, just to give an idea.

I think that they have been too contaminated by the Pinnochio, so only a few people remember how a primulinum should look like. Furthermore, when the Indos were out of stock, they traded paphs with Europe against pinnochio album, first as pot-plant, then to sell those ones to their Taiwanese, US and Japanese market - and sometimes back to Europe.

Now it is nearly gone, but before, there were a lot of nurseries in Indonesia dealing in pot-plant.... One even had some thousands praestans/gardineri etc... clumps for the Japanese pot-plant market. There are still couple hundreds there in that nursery - that's them who had the first praestans album ever found...

I actually have to agree with sanderianum, that some of the primulinums that are for sale are probably of hybrid origin. We however do have some primulinums in our collection that we have had for about 20 to 25 years, those have been line bred for 3 to 4 generations (Thus far I know we have not mixed them with other primulinums). Following are some pictures:

The regular form (or the yellow form):

An older generation flower:

One of our newest seedlings:

Plant:

close up of leaf:

colored form (primulum var purpurescens):

plant:

Sanderianum mentioned that the true primulinum is fragrant. I had never noticed that, so today smelled the flowers, and to my suprise the primulinum purpurescens had a faint sweet almost honey like fragrance. I could not detect a fragrance on the yellow form.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Now a few months ago we got a bunch of primulinum's that were bred from Taiwan ('Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5'). To me they looked totally different, and I was suspicious that they are indeed the true species, but are actually Paph. Pinocchio or Avalon Mist.

Here is a picture of our primulinum (below) with the Taiwanese strain (above) :

The flowers of the Taiwanese strain are much larger, and have a flatter dorsal.

Also the foliage is larger and wider:

the 2 strains next to each other (Taiwanese strain to the left, ours to the right):

Another thing I noticed, is that in the Taiwanese strain there is some mottling in the foliage; this is specially visible in the younger foliage:

So my conclusion is similar to Sanderianum, that in this case we are probably dealing with some kind of hybrid.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

You could think that maybe the Taiwanese strain are 4N primulinums. Sanderianum mentioned that there were some supposedly 4N primulinum's on the market that were actually hybrids as well. We actually have a 4N primulinum that is a true 4N (I counted the chromosomes and confirmed this). The leaves on this plant are very skinny and the plant is much smaller that the Taiwanese strain. Also the color of the flower is very different compared to the Taiwanese strain of primulinum. In a tetraploid you expect the flowers to be more intense compared to a diploid, and indeed the flower color is more yellow on our 4N plant compared to our regular 2N plants. So when I compare our 4N primulinum to the Taiwanes strain I don't think that they are 4N primulinum's (but I will have to count the chromosomes to confirm this) Here is a picture of the flower of our 4N primulinum 'Kings Crown':

Robert

 

[slippertalker]

I agree very much with Sanderianum about the much larger and white pouched "primulinums". All of the plants that I remember when they were first imported were quite compact, in fact definably smaller than other cochlopetalums, and the flowers were yellow with a green staminode. No white pouch.....and the flowers were significantly smaller than others in the same group.

 

[nikv]

Interesting discussion. So could the Taiwanese primulinums be the result of line breeding or are they definitely hybrids? And thanks for the photo of the primulum var purpurescens. I need to get one of those into my collection.

 

[Drorchid]

Interesting discussion. So could the Taiwanese primulinums be the result of line breeding or are they definitely hybrids? And thanks for the photo of the primulum var purpurescens. I need to get one of those into my collection.

I think they are hybrids. You cannot get "mottling" in the foliage due to line breeding.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?

Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....

Robert

 

[paphioboy]

Interesting thread. Thanks for the pics, Robert.. That Taiwanese hybrid is unbelievable, almost twice the size of a regular prim.. I want it, whatever it may be. hehe

 

[paphioboy]

IMHO, I would go for the hybrid..

 

[nikv]

I happen to love the cochlopetalums, so I would get one of each. :rollhappy:

 

[NYEric]

I would hope that since people are trying to purchace primulinums that they get what they are asking for; or, are told they are buying hybrids.

 

[delphiguy]

wow interesting thread and educational too.

 

[Kavanaru]

Now a few months ago we got a bunch of primulinum's that were bred from Taiwan ('Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5'). To me they looked totally different, and I was suspicious that they are indeed the true species, but are actually Paph. Pinocchio or Avalon Mist.

Here is a picture of our primulinum (below) with the Taiwanese strain (above) :

Robert

interesting...

Robert, you mentioned the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5', and showed obvious differences to what you present here as true primulinum...

I have received one plant of the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5' from you, and this plant is currently in bloom. However, the flower is more similar (color, shape and size - unless you have really tiny thumbs ) to the smaller flower you present here... Doe sthis mean, this cross would also have such a great variability, that separating it from real primulinum would be impossible to 100%, based on size, color and shape? (I do not speak from fragrance, I have not checked if my plant is fragrant yet)

 

[Roy]

Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???

 

[Roth]

Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???

Robert pictures are great so is his presentation of the true vs fake ones... As for the fragrance, try to get several people to smell the flowers, some will definitely find it. The same for rothschildianum, they all have a pepper fragrance for me and some friends, and no smell for some others...

Moquetteanum fma. flavoviride NEVER existed at any time, they are all. without a single exception, hybrids. The same for glaucophyllum album, such a plant does not exist.

 

[kentuckiense]

Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?

Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....

Robert

I would absolutely, positively, 100% much rather have the true primulinum.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

I like species, and if I was buying a primulinum, I'd want it to be the true species...after all, one of the charms of primulinum is its tiny size. (Has anyone crossed it with thaianum?) Good size is fine to, but for that I'd get a hybrid...but then again, I'll get my hybrids among other types...for cochlo's I'll stick with species. Take care, Eric

 

[SlipperFan]

If I wanted the species primulinum, I would absolutely take the one that is certain. I would be unhappy if I purchased a primulinum thinking it was the species, only to find it was a hybrid.

That being said, I'd love to have the hybrid white-pouched primulinum, but I'd also want to know the true parents.

 

[SlipperKing]

species for me. I don't want no NOID

 

[UweM]

Paph. primulinum = without mottled leaves ?

Here you can see a former normally plant, which was cultivated 2 years under
fluorescent tube "Fluora" from an orchidfriend - chlorose?? :