Want a couple of kilos of helenae? :)

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DrLeslieEe

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That is indeed a tragic scene. Plants ripped out of the habitat in chunks, looking like the entire populations were taken.

Since we don't know the full story, there are 2 possible scenarios:
1. the failure of CITES locally
2. the plants were saved from deforestation

Let's hope that it was the second reason. And that these plants are salvaged and grown properly before they expire.

Sadly one of those seed pods could have supplied all those plants to the trade.
 

dodidoki

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Very sad and incomprehensible especially when these plants are available all over the world legally for reasonable price.My friends told me about thai and viet flower markets.He mentioned for exaple dianthum, plants were for sale 10 usd/kg.
 

Hien

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I am translating what the seller mentioned :
These are new arrival plants.
There are 10 orders , means the helenae plants were separated into 10 heaps , ready for ordering.
The price for each whole heap was 150,000 Vietnam Dong or 6.95 US dollars.
I believe I hear him saying "today, I cover the shipping" meaning free shipping, and he ships out the next day after ordering
 

Hien

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That is indeed a tragic scene. Plants ripped out of the habitat in chunks, looking like the entire populations were taken.

Since we don't know the full story, there are 2 possible scenarios:
1. the failure of CITES locally
2. the plants were saved from deforestation

Let's hope that it was the second reason. And that these plants are salvaged and grown properly before they expire.

Sadly one of those seed pods could have supplied all those plants to the trade.
I don't think CITES has any jurisdiction on what the Vietnamese doing within Vietnam .
Another matter, it may sound controversial to some , the minority tribes who live up in the mountains and highlands have to earn a living, to feed their children with whatever mean they have .
No one lift a finger to help if they starve , so no one should have a saying when they go to the jungle to harvest the orchids to sell , to them an orchid is no different to a mushroom, a bamboo shoot, or a squirrel , or a deer, just a mean to survive.
 

Martin

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I don't think CITES has any jurisdiction on what the Vietnamese doing within Vietnam .
Another matter, it may sound controversial to some , the minority tribes who live up in the mountains and highlands have to earn a living, to feed their children with whatever mean they have .
No one lift a finger to help if they starve , so no one should have a saying when they go to the jungle to harvest the orchids to sell , to them an orchid is no different to a mushroom, a bamboo shoot, or a squirrel , or a deer, just a mean to survive.
I have often heard this argumentation and i totally understand them. Probably i would do the same. But i just wonder from what they were living before there was an interest in orchids. Its not so long ago. And i also wonder how long there will be plants in the Jungle, which they can sell. When you look at FB so many plants are sold every day.... Really incredible how many plants are around in the wild.
 

GuRu

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I am translating what the seller mentioned :........
Hien., thank you for translating. I was thinking of you to do this. Other person here who speaks Vietnames is Hakone, but unfortunately he hasn't posted here for many weeks. I'ts aways good to have some background knowledge before making an assessment. Unfortunately CITES doesn't protect endangered plant from wild collecting in their countries of origin and on the other hand who will judge over people who collect endangered plants wild to get by ? Furthermore they might not know that these plants are endangered. Sad situation to both - plants and people.
 

dodidoki

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Hien, destroying habitat and killing the creatures of nature for a short term benefit leads to a tragic and irreversible end of this story, i think.
 

Hien

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I have often heard this argumentation and i totally understand them. Probably i would do the same. But i just wonder from what they were living before there was an interest in orchids. Its not so long ago. And i also wonder how long there will be plants in the Jungle, which they can sell. When you look at FB so many plants are sold every day.... Really incredible how many plants are around in the wild.
Perhaps not the helenae specifically, but it was not that suddenly there were the Victorian Englishmen who taught us to collect and grow flower. nor was it a sudden fad in recent time either.
The Vietnamese always collected orchids, and grew them , especially the scholarly or wealthy types .(so were other Asian countries)
If you look at ancient Asian paintings , they shown scenes with orchids
When I was a kid I saw my oldest uncle's outdoor overhead frame structure, which he hung hundreds of orchids, all native species (no hybrid nor other continents' orchids at the time) each year he made trips up the highlands to search for other species he did not have yet . And before him , I heard that my grandfather also collected and grew orchids as well .
As Dr. Leslie mentioned, what should they worry about more is the chopping down of forest for wood and land, and with those actions, not just orchids, but also thousands of other plants and insects species disappear
 

Hien

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Hien, destroying habitat and killing the creatures of nature for a short term benefit leads to a tragic and irreversible end of this story, i think.
I understand and agree with you , that said , I also think along the way Martin and Rudolf thought, that the natives need to survive , actually the peoples who bought from the tribal peoples and resell plants in these video are not big enterprises, once a while they get the shipments .
The ones that Chinese dealers bought on the other hand were on gigantic scale, they ordered tons and tons of plant materials (orchids included) for practically nothing. One time I heard that every able persons from a few of the Vietnamese tribes , just stop doing everything and when to the jungles to fill the Chinese order for Jewel orchids ( Chinese consider Jewel orchids medicinal herbs)
Something even worse than these are when the government officials destroy acres upon acres of the forest to harvest the precious wood for themselves, or for profit . Also they destroyed these natural beautiful scenic sites with garish out of place resorts .
Orchids aside, some countries are quite contradictory, for example China implemented planting trees to reforestation their Gobi desert, yet at the same time they tell the Brazilians to burn down the forest to grow soybean for China consumption .
 

Hien

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Very sad and incomprehensible especially when these plants are available all over the world legally for reasonable price.My friends told me about thai and viet flower markets.He mentioned for exaple dianthum, plants were for sale 10 usd/kg.
I forget to mention that what we see here is the local trading inside Vietnam for common folks, not mean for the international collectors. They do not sell or ship outside the country. I would venture to guess that the case of humongous harvesting to supply the Chinese herbal market must involve bribing party's officers, or organize by the high level officers themselves.
" these plants are available all over the world legally for reasonable price" only applied to us, who live in developed countries. What reasonable price for us is outrageously expensive to the natives, take an example, we may consider a 45.00 helenae raised from flasking a reasonable price and the right thing to do, however , they do not have flasking service over there , and the effort and red tape they have to go thru to import this flask raised plant back to Vietnam would be unaffordable .
It will be hard for us to persuade the local vietnamese not to buy "a heap of something" for 6.95 legally, and instead, for him to struggle thru redtape to import "one thing" produced by us from flask for 45.00 .
 
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abax

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Hien is absolutely right. I've seen what the timber industry is like in Borneo and the damage
they do. If some of these orchids thrive, it's because the (people of Borneo, VN) saved them
from destruction. I think it very harsh of "wealthy" Americans and Europeans to be judgmental in this context. Some of you may be too young to remember what the U.S. did to the
VN people...WE destroyed village culture and left the people to starve. Remember all that
napalm?????
 

Martin

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Thanks you very much Hien for your detailed explanations! It throwes a different light in this case!
Hien is absolutely right. I've seen what the timber industry is like in Borneo and the damage
they do. If some of these orchids thrive, it's because the (people of Borneo, VN) saved them
from destruction. I think it very harsh of "wealthy" Americans and Europeans to be judgmental in this context. Some of you may be too young to remember what the U.S. did to the
VN people...WE destroyed village culture and left the people to starve. Remember all that
napalm?????
Unfourtunatly i saw the destruction in Borneo with my own eyes, too. Since that time i stopped consuming any products made with palm oil.
 

dodidoki

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Yes,I feel with people who fight for survival day by day.I think local authorities must bear responsibility for this and most serious problem is not the local collection but destroying habitat for industrial purpuses without any attempt for recultivation.
 

GuRu

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Hien is absolutely right. I've seen what the timber industry is like in Borneo and the damage
they do. If some of these orchids thrive, it's because the (people of Borneo, VN) saved them
from destruction. I think it very harsh of "wealthy" Americans and Europeans to be judgmental in this context. Some of you may be too young to remember what the U.S. did to the VN people...WE destroyed village culture and left the people to starve. Remember all thatnapalm?????
To say it clearly, I don't feel lucky to see such videos or photos. But it shows us on the other hand that CITES doesn't help to protect endangered species from extinction. Furthermore these private collectors aren't really the biggest problem. In my eyes the biggest problem, as you and others mentioned, is cutting down the (rain)forest for agricultural or industrial purposes with the protection of the national government (e.g. Brazil) and the rest of the world watches powerless.....or is intrested in the goods such as wood or natural resources.
 

dodidoki

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Look, my friends.Anyone must know here that most of them have illegally bought plant or plants in our collections.I wrote previously that it could be strange but it maybe the way of protection if some of you have possibility of breeding these plants.i have similar plans with few of my rare plants, too.Fortunately my conditions improved fast in the past years, eg. my said to be rare wentworthianum has 3 new shoots, I plan to self it next year.Many of plants offered for sale here originated from my collection, eg. Cattleya dowiana, dormanniana, violacea semialba, velutina.I sent seeds my friend, he breeded succesfully, many of them are fbs size nowadays.So it could be one of the way of protection of rare species in the future, added sadly, against of cites laws.
 

Hien

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Look, my friends.Anyone must know here that most of them have illegally bought plant or plants in our collections.I wrote previously that it could be strange but it maybe the way of protection if some of you have possibility of breeding these plants.i have similar plans with few of my rare plants, too.Fortunately my conditions improved fast in the past years, eg. my said to be rare wentworthianum has 3 new shoots, I plan to self it next year.Many of plants offered for sale here originated from my collection, eg. Cattleya dowiana, dormanniana, violacea semialba, velutina.I sent seeds my friend, he breeded succesfully, many of them are fbs size nowadays.So it could be one of the way of protection of rare species in the future, added sadly, against of cites laws.
yes those were good actions you have taken.
We should always breed the plants which we have that others don't seem to have, and donate the results .
I had a few dendrobium ochraceum (which I bought legally within the US, and since then I have not seen that species sold here again, not one plant ) Fortunately I pollinate and donate the seeds to Meyers conservatory . I believe the result was only 10 flasks, but at least now, somewhere in the US there are 10 growers who are growing those seedlings , I pray that they are successful so that one day this species will be common sight in the US .
 
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