NYEric
Well-Known Member
I must confess that I dont know a lot about moss.I just keep some of my pleuro's on some live stuff I got from a display at the GNYOS show and that seems to be OK.
Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:
C
curious
Guest
Hello NYEric I have some terrestrial moss that sprouted out of peat(removed it from a pot of flytraps I was growing) and it has been in a GladTM container terrestrial with some baby newts for over half a year now. It doesn't grow much if at all, but its green. Many viv people say most mosses you find will not work in a terrarium due to needing winter dormancy. But if anyone has any terrestrial mosses growing well somewhere in a tropical greenhouse that would be quite interesting.
Thanks! Again, any suggestions thoughts etc. welcome.
Thanks! Again, any suggestions thoughts etc. welcome.
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
More info for the vivarium
How large a tank are you using. I cannot tell from looking at it. 40 gallons?
There is alot of info on the net on constructing vivariums or terrariums and many sites that will link you to relevant info sites. Have you checked out terrarium sites or herp sites?
It looks like your are building for frogs? Or is the water just an element in a plant showcase? Besides frogs there are anoeles that do well in tropical type vivs.
From what I see you are overplanted! I would get as complete a profile on each plant you are using. What you want is slow growers and easy to maintain, nothing that will grow out of hand and be a bane to your set up.
It is much easier adding plants than trying to control something that is simply taking over and forcing you to do a major redo. The most important consideration before getting into the planting is the lighting. Depending on what kind of light you are providing and the length of your days for the viv can help limit your selection of the kinds of plants that will be suitable to your creation.
Also design-wise you may wish to enlarge the area where your animal denizens can visit and be exposed for your viewing such as a large rock or a rocky ledge. Also I think the depth of your soil is too shallow for most plants apart from low growing creepers which might make the use of Selaginella kraussiana a must. You can offset this by using planting containers that sit on the floor of the aquarium surrounded by the water (perhaps even a few pinholes around the lower sides of this container might be sufficient to allow for some wetness to the soil mix of the plant-I would use coconut chunks in as bottom fill).
while it is understandable at being wowwed out by the expert displays of others, they are not without fault and even such displays have their major ups and downs! This is because the viv created is almost a closed system and any closed biological system can be put into upheaval by any minor change in the conditions that it depends on. So a comprehensive plan that examines all the important variables and considers the options available in the event of failure in any attribute, such as the light bulbs burning out while you are on vacation, etc. must be thought out in advance.
My best advice to you is to go slow and think small. Only a few plants, for example Selaginella as a ground base with a jewel orchids such as Ludisia or Anoectochilus tucked along the side of a large ledge or trunk stub with something like a low growing pilea that creeps up and into the water where you might find a plant of Sagittaria. Tropical moss is available that will do well in a terrarium/vivarium.
For lots of other info check out:
T & C Terrariums
Black Jungle Terrarium Supply
Cloud Jungle Epiphytes
What you find there will help supplement the advice you have already received here.
And to pitch my web-journal on Jewel Orchids, visit me at:
http://jcsplitimage.topcities.com/jop.html
How large a tank are you using. I cannot tell from looking at it. 40 gallons?
There is alot of info on the net on constructing vivariums or terrariums and many sites that will link you to relevant info sites. Have you checked out terrarium sites or herp sites?
It looks like your are building for frogs? Or is the water just an element in a plant showcase? Besides frogs there are anoeles that do well in tropical type vivs.
From what I see you are overplanted! I would get as complete a profile on each plant you are using. What you want is slow growers and easy to maintain, nothing that will grow out of hand and be a bane to your set up.
It is much easier adding plants than trying to control something that is simply taking over and forcing you to do a major redo. The most important consideration before getting into the planting is the lighting. Depending on what kind of light you are providing and the length of your days for the viv can help limit your selection of the kinds of plants that will be suitable to your creation.
Also design-wise you may wish to enlarge the area where your animal denizens can visit and be exposed for your viewing such as a large rock or a rocky ledge. Also I think the depth of your soil is too shallow for most plants apart from low growing creepers which might make the use of Selaginella kraussiana a must. You can offset this by using planting containers that sit on the floor of the aquarium surrounded by the water (perhaps even a few pinholes around the lower sides of this container might be sufficient to allow for some wetness to the soil mix of the plant-I would use coconut chunks in as bottom fill).
while it is understandable at being wowwed out by the expert displays of others, they are not without fault and even such displays have their major ups and downs! This is because the viv created is almost a closed system and any closed biological system can be put into upheaval by any minor change in the conditions that it depends on. So a comprehensive plan that examines all the important variables and considers the options available in the event of failure in any attribute, such as the light bulbs burning out while you are on vacation, etc. must be thought out in advance.
My best advice to you is to go slow and think small. Only a few plants, for example Selaginella as a ground base with a jewel orchids such as Ludisia or Anoectochilus tucked along the side of a large ledge or trunk stub with something like a low growing pilea that creeps up and into the water where you might find a plant of Sagittaria. Tropical moss is available that will do well in a terrarium/vivarium.
For lots of other info check out:
T & C Terrariums
Black Jungle Terrarium Supply
Cloud Jungle Epiphytes
What you find there will help supplement the advice you have already received here.
And to pitch my web-journal on Jewel Orchids, visit me at:
http://jcsplitimage.topcities.com/jop.html
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Black Jungle, Yeah I got a Ludisia from them thats about a foot around in a 2" pot. It's in bloom right now.
C
curious
Guest
Hello Terrestrial man: Thanks for the advice! I'm aiming at frogs at the moment. I kinda find it hard to believe it is overplanted, it looks pretty sparse ATM. I've been putting what I can get in as from experience with planted aquariums some plants do great, some just dissapear, and some you look at later and realize you don't really like them. The pace of growth with these terrestrials seems slower than with aquatics but I don't have an particularly rampant growing plants established yet.
How deep ought the substrate to be? This is a 46 gallon tank, and its about 5 inches in the back. Syngonium rayii and the Anthurium pentaphyllum have grown a few roots down into the false bottom by this point.
I'd like to add more hardscape(wood, etc.) to allow more areas for plants and animals. right now I plan on leaving the front center with either leaf litter or low growing plants as the feeding section.
Light is a 96 watt compact flourescent fixture.
An update. A few new plants have been added in.
Begonia glabra
Selaginella umbrosa
Cissus rhombifolia
Syngonium rayi
Peperomia pellucida(hoping this one makes it)
Peperomia sp. Costa Rica
Peperomia scandens
Peperomia obtusifolia(might remove this one, its the outta place looking plant in the far left)
Anthurium pentaphyllum
Microgramma percussa
Episcia assumed to be lilacina
java moss
How deep ought the substrate to be? This is a 46 gallon tank, and its about 5 inches in the back. Syngonium rayii and the Anthurium pentaphyllum have grown a few roots down into the false bottom by this point.
I'd like to add more hardscape(wood, etc.) to allow more areas for plants and animals. right now I plan on leaving the front center with either leaf litter or low growing plants as the feeding section.
Light is a 96 watt compact flourescent fixture.
An update. A few new plants have been added in.
Begonia glabra
Selaginella umbrosa
Cissus rhombifolia
Syngonium rayi
Peperomia pellucida(hoping this one makes it)
Peperomia sp. Costa Rica
Peperomia scandens
Peperomia obtusifolia(might remove this one, its the outta place looking plant in the far left)
Anthurium pentaphyllum
Microgramma percussa
Episcia assumed to be lilacina
java moss
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
curious said:Hello Terrestrial man: Thanks for the advice! I'm aiming at frogs at the moment. I kinda find it hard to believe it is overplanted, it looks pretty sparse ATM. I've been putting what I can get in as from experience with planted aquariums some plants do great, some just dissapear, and some you look at later and realize you don't really like them. The pace of growth with these terrestrials seems slower than with aquatics but I don't have an particularly rampant growing plants established yet.
How deep ought the substrate to be? This is a 46 gallon tank, and its about 5 inches in the back. Syngonium rayii and the Anthurium pentaphyllum have grown a few roots down into the false bottom by this point.
I'd like to add more hardscape(wood, etc.) to allow more areas for plants and animals. right now I plan on leaving the front center with either leaf litter or low growing plants as the feeding section.
Light is a 96 watt compact flourescent fixture.
An update. A few new plants have been added in.
Begonia glabra
Selaginella umbrosa
Cissus rhombifolia
Syngonium rayi
Peperomia pellucida(hoping this one makes it)
Peperomia sp. Costa Rica
Peperomia scandens
Peperomia obtusifolia(might remove this one, its the outta place looking plant in the far left)
Anthurium pentaphyllum
Microgramma percussa
Episcia assumed to be lilacina
java moss
Hello Curious,
Like what you are trying to do with the aquarium!
My vision of the viv being overcrowded is based upon what
it will look like in 12 months presuming the plants are happy and respond well to your culture.
Before going on with my reply I need to check out all the plants you are growing as though i am familar with some and with the genera of some I need to look at images and check more info so I can visualize what it could look like.
A thought has crossed my mine. Question: you are planting small or young plants, did you consider plugging in larger plants? Reason I ask is that larger plants tend to respond more readily to the change in their culture whereas young plants may not handle change from where they were to your spot.
I will be back later this evening. Later.
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
Hello Curious!
Years ago the Grateful Dead came out with an album or a song titled 'What a Strange Long Trip It's Been". After doing a number of browses looking for info on plants for the viv/terrarium and looking at your plants in particular I have reached the conclusion that there simply is not much info out there. Lots of sites that tell you how to build a terrarium but they all seem to say the same: plant small plants of similar cultural requirements and some of the plants listed I would not even consider as suitable!! Perhaps this is the germ of another web-journal, as if I didn't have enough already!!!
But lets tackle your plants:
The Begonia glabra, Cissus rhombifolia, Syngonium rayii, Anthurium pentaphyllum can grow into very large plants-too large for your set-up.
Selaginella umbrosa is an interesting but suitable club moss.
The Peperomias tend to like it cool with a max in the mid-70 F and definitely do not like wet feet. The Peperomia pellucida you are nursing is a tropical annual weed species! It will not last but one year.
Microgramma percusa (also considered as Polypodium percussum) can grow to one foot tall and can spread throughout the viv crowding out everything!
The Episcia likes it hot and humid in a shaded spot.
Of course, Java Moss, an aquatic that enjoys good light.
So what can one make of your selections? I am curious as to why you chose what you did? Potshots? Retailer hype?
Or did the plant's image appeal to you? Or?
I think that one important consideration that I did not even think about in my earlier comments is that in a small enclosed space there is relatively little variation in temperature or humidity though there can be significant variation in light levels due to shading by taller plants or branches or ledges. So this fact would tend to limit the range of choice in plants to those that will fit together as they grow under similar conditions naturally. This could very well point towards a rather limited selection of plants that would seem to contradict the idea that the tropics have a wealth of variety of plants (which is true). The problem is that the variety of plants in the tropics is due to the variety of habitat that different plants grow in. Often there may only be a few species that are occupying a certain "strata" of the habitat. So then the best and most awesome vivs/terrariums are tall!
However, the approach to developing what you are attempting is to focus upon a precise area of habitat. Say for example just the adjacent area along the side of a backwater pool. This area would have aquatic to marginal to shore type plants and possibly some epiphytes in overhanging branches. The soil would barely rise so that the area would be basically wet to soggy soil. So just what kind of plants would be suitable? Tropical marginals! So what are these?
Ok Curious, your turn!!! If you can see where I am driving then maybe you may want to either stop and check it out or turn around if you don't like my direction. To perk your imagination check out an aquarium plants site!
More later. Gotta eat my dinner!
Jerry
Years ago the Grateful Dead came out with an album or a song titled 'What a Strange Long Trip It's Been". After doing a number of browses looking for info on plants for the viv/terrarium and looking at your plants in particular I have reached the conclusion that there simply is not much info out there. Lots of sites that tell you how to build a terrarium but they all seem to say the same: plant small plants of similar cultural requirements and some of the plants listed I would not even consider as suitable!! Perhaps this is the germ of another web-journal, as if I didn't have enough already!!!
But lets tackle your plants:
The Begonia glabra, Cissus rhombifolia, Syngonium rayii, Anthurium pentaphyllum can grow into very large plants-too large for your set-up.
Selaginella umbrosa is an interesting but suitable club moss.
The Peperomias tend to like it cool with a max in the mid-70 F and definitely do not like wet feet. The Peperomia pellucida you are nursing is a tropical annual weed species! It will not last but one year.
Microgramma percusa (also considered as Polypodium percussum) can grow to one foot tall and can spread throughout the viv crowding out everything!
The Episcia likes it hot and humid in a shaded spot.
Of course, Java Moss, an aquatic that enjoys good light.
So what can one make of your selections? I am curious as to why you chose what you did? Potshots? Retailer hype?
Or did the plant's image appeal to you? Or?
I think that one important consideration that I did not even think about in my earlier comments is that in a small enclosed space there is relatively little variation in temperature or humidity though there can be significant variation in light levels due to shading by taller plants or branches or ledges. So this fact would tend to limit the range of choice in plants to those that will fit together as they grow under similar conditions naturally. This could very well point towards a rather limited selection of plants that would seem to contradict the idea that the tropics have a wealth of variety of plants (which is true). The problem is that the variety of plants in the tropics is due to the variety of habitat that different plants grow in. Often there may only be a few species that are occupying a certain "strata" of the habitat. So then the best and most awesome vivs/terrariums are tall!
However, the approach to developing what you are attempting is to focus upon a precise area of habitat. Say for example just the adjacent area along the side of a backwater pool. This area would have aquatic to marginal to shore type plants and possibly some epiphytes in overhanging branches. The soil would barely rise so that the area would be basically wet to soggy soil. So just what kind of plants would be suitable? Tropical marginals! So what are these?
Ok Curious, your turn!!! If you can see where I am driving then maybe you may want to either stop and check it out or turn around if you don't like my direction. To perk your imagination check out an aquarium plants site!
More later. Gotta eat my dinner!
Jerry
C
curious
Guest
Size is a matter, though one thing that has to be taken into account is that you can trim the plants. One of the most common and highly praised viv plants is creeping fig...ficus pumila. The one that you see turning buildings and highway bridges green. Providing trimming is done to keep it in bounds it makes an excellent background plant for a viv. A good portion of these plants I got from someone who specializes in offering viviarium plants. The Cissus is something I thought to try myself since a close relative Cissus amazonica(again, not a small vine) is a very popular plant. Cissus rhombifolia is a very popular houseplant that does get large, but nowhere near what creeping fig can get. Syngonium rayi is one of the smaller aroids and according to people who grow them in vivs the leaves are no more than 4 inches. Not sure on the Anthurium pentaphyllum. It gets huge in the wild, but again got it from someone who kept it in a viv. He says it does get large but can be kept in bounds by trimming.
Not sure on the peperomia pellucida, but I didn't know it was an annual. I guess if it seeds and comes back it still works. The seller made no mention of that and I will ask him...but I think in viviarium additions it may not apply. Peperomias in generally are highly regarded as viviarium plants. They don't like wet feet, so are great for backgrounds and the like as epiphytes. I need some more wood for them to climb on though.
I've read and asked about most of these and have been told they work as suitable viviarium plants. Again, I think the main factor is that growth can be limited by trimming and that many plants may not reach full stature in a viv. Example...Syngonium podophyllum makes a great houseplant, but in a greenhouse with something to climb turns into almost a tree due to transforming to its adult form. Same for pothos, some philodendron etc. In a viv or house where they can't climb, many of these plants stay in their juvenile form. I am having trouble finding a rosette plant that I like that will stay in bounds...as you really can't limit their size as much from what I've heard. Some people use Alocasia in vivs, but if your viv is to small and you make that plant to happy it will literally push the top off.
I've been trying to limit my selections to Central American plants, so a few great plants I have left out due to that. That includes many marginal plants such as crypts, Anubias, etc.
On light levels many plants I am using naturally grow or start their lives at the forest floor(exceptions would be epiphytes). So most are adapted to take low light conditions which is why tropicals are so highly regarded as houseplants. Epiphytes, which get a leg up by growing on trees or other things, then would do best placed higher up or in more exposed parts of the viviarium...which they are. I agree wholeheartedly that taller viviarums offer more chances to create interesting scapes due to the very vertical nature of forests. Here I guess I am trying to depict and area where perhaps their are few large trees next to a small pool...maybe a small clearing caused by a tree fall...that receives quite a bit of light at ground level allowing a multitude of plants to grow in.
Thanks for the comments!
Not sure on the peperomia pellucida, but I didn't know it was an annual. I guess if it seeds and comes back it still works. The seller made no mention of that and I will ask him...but I think in viviarium additions it may not apply. Peperomias in generally are highly regarded as viviarium plants. They don't like wet feet, so are great for backgrounds and the like as epiphytes. I need some more wood for them to climb on though.
I've read and asked about most of these and have been told they work as suitable viviarium plants. Again, I think the main factor is that growth can be limited by trimming and that many plants may not reach full stature in a viv. Example...Syngonium podophyllum makes a great houseplant, but in a greenhouse with something to climb turns into almost a tree due to transforming to its adult form. Same for pothos, some philodendron etc. In a viv or house where they can't climb, many of these plants stay in their juvenile form. I am having trouble finding a rosette plant that I like that will stay in bounds...as you really can't limit their size as much from what I've heard. Some people use Alocasia in vivs, but if your viv is to small and you make that plant to happy it will literally push the top off.
I've been trying to limit my selections to Central American plants, so a few great plants I have left out due to that. That includes many marginal plants such as crypts, Anubias, etc.
On light levels many plants I am using naturally grow or start their lives at the forest floor(exceptions would be epiphytes). So most are adapted to take low light conditions which is why tropicals are so highly regarded as houseplants. Epiphytes, which get a leg up by growing on trees or other things, then would do best placed higher up or in more exposed parts of the viviarium...which they are. I agree wholeheartedly that taller viviarums offer more chances to create interesting scapes due to the very vertical nature of forests. Here I guess I am trying to depict and area where perhaps their are few large trees next to a small pool...maybe a small clearing caused by a tree fall...that receives quite a bit of light at ground level allowing a multitude of plants to grow in.
Thanks for the comments!
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
http://forum.theorchidsource.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004179
Hey Curious, in case you have not seen the nano vivs. The images are half way down the page. Enjoy.
http://www.aquatropicsdesign.com/aquarium-gallery.htm
Above has some images that might give you some more ideas!!
Cheers.
Jerry
Hey Curious, in case you have not seen the nano vivs. The images are half way down the page. Enjoy.
http://www.aquatropicsdesign.com/aquarium-gallery.htm
Above has some images that might give you some more ideas!!
Cheers.
Jerry
C
curious
Guest
Thanks for the links terrestrialman! I wonder if these pieces of manzanita may be a bit smooth for epiphytes to really get ahold of as in many of those viviariums.
This here has to be the most amazing set of viviariums I've seen. http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5237&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Also, I noticed you asked about the use of young plants vs old plants. That is interesting, as I've actually heard the opposite from many people. They claim full grown plants growin in greenhouse or houseplant conditions do poorly transferred to viviarium. Cuttings and the like, on the other hand, make the adjustment much easier. People for example report trouble putting adults of certain broms into a viv but can often get pups to survive.
This here has to be the most amazing set of viviariums I've seen. http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5237&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Also, I noticed you asked about the use of young plants vs old plants. That is interesting, as I've actually heard the opposite from many people. They claim full grown plants growin in greenhouse or houseplant conditions do poorly transferred to viviarium. Cuttings and the like, on the other hand, make the adjustment much easier. People for example report trouble putting adults of certain broms into a viv but can often get pups to survive.
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
Hello Curious!
Thanks for the link and the comments on using older vs younger plants.
I am kinda rushing thru today but I did run across this FANTASTIC SITE: check these out!
http://www.georgecramer.com/dutchvivariums.html
Cheers and Seasons Blessings!
Thanks for the link and the comments on using older vs younger plants.
I am kinda rushing thru today but I did run across this FANTASTIC SITE: check these out!
http://www.georgecramer.com/dutchvivariums.html
Cheers and Seasons Blessings!
C
curious
Guest
Wow those are some pretty awesome Euro-style vivs! Many of them are a bit too plant dominated for my taste and thus look a bit unnatural(also the use of too many colorful/variegated plants). It is hard to find the balance between plants and hardscape...but a good hardscape that is also lacking in my tank goes a long way to the final look. The last one demonstrates that quite well and also shows height helps alot!
C
curious
Guest
The final stage of hardscape work...unless I get any more ambitious ideas. The white stuff is edible mushrooms tossed in for springtail food.
I will be adding in some more plants, and eventually the animals. Oh, and maybe when I'm feeling confident, some orchids.
terrestrial_man
Well-Known Member
NICE Curious!:clap:
Would recommend giving the plants time to grow and start filling in the tank before adding animals.
(forgot I had posted a bunch of replies on this thread!!!)
Would recommend giving the plants time to grow and start filling in the tank before adding animals.
(forgot I had posted a bunch of replies on this thread!!!)
Last edited:
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Very nice setup.
dave b
Well-Known Member
Great looking viv. They are a lot of fun. Do consider the lighting needs of many orchids for bloom. Many (encyclia, phrags) have high light requirements that are harder to achieve without going to high output set-ups (HID, VHOs...etc.) Heat then becomes an issue. It is very easy for a viv to really heat up with some lighting systems. I used to keep vivs some time ago, and it was common for them to hang in the 80-90 + range (mainly during summer) with very high 90+ humidity. As mentioned already, air circulation then becomes very important. There are many orchids that do well in lower light (and hot / humid) situations, and possible candidates for vivs. The Jewels, some paphs, phals, and others like aerangis (my favorites). Ive thought about setting another one up recently, and may investigate installing small computer type fans for circulation. Good luck
NYEric
Well-Known Member
You'll def. need a fan and look up the fragrant aerangeas, etc.
C
curious
Guest
Thanks all! This thing is really starting to take shape now.
It has 96 watts of Compact flourescent lighting...is that good enough? I do plan on getting a small computer fan in...probably hide it in a piece of PVC pipe. The plants are for the most part growing fine, but they are practically all low light plants so that means very little.
It has 96 watts of Compact flourescent lighting...is that good enough? I do plan on getting a small computer fan in...probably hide it in a piece of PVC pipe. The plants are for the most part growing fine, but they are practically all low light plants so that means very little.
NYEric
Well-Known Member
When you put in fan [and ultrasonic fogger], make sure you enclose them in mesh or screen to keep out the little critters.
C
curious
Guest
I have added in a few plants. Monstera obliqua, Selaginella plana(too hard to find any Costarican species), Codonanthe gracilis(to be removed, who wants it?), Columnea microphylla, Pilea microphylla,Anthurium gracile, and Utricularia longifolia(similar species occurs in CR).
Taiwan moss growth on the shoreline. It is also growing up the manzanita branch sticking into the water.
Begonia glabra. The fastest growing plant in this viv right now, cept for maybe the new Pilea. It is also sending out aerial roots since I started misting.
A rather funny looking Anthurium gracile. It is sending up leaves
Artillery plant. This thing is growing like crazy already
U. longifolia experiment. With sphagnum and misting with RO will it take?
I'll definetly remember that. I need to figure out though where to find a cheap little computer fan and how to perhaps put it into a pvc pipe or similar hiding spot and then sticking this whole thing on the lid.
Also, anyone with sexperience with Anthurium gracile I'd appreciate suggestions on pampering this plant. I suspect it is a bit orchidlike in care plus I need a big rosette plant on that side.
