Viet/Chinese Species for Sale at WOC

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Slipperhead

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Say, did anyone see the helenaes and hangs being sold openly at the WOC? :(
 
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Ernie

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Yep. Check out some of the other WOC threads for silly discussions...

-Ernie
 

WolfDog1 (C. Williams)

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Yes. I bought a flask of hangianum and then returned it to the vendor. It was a very hard decision to return it, but I did.

Craig
 

rdlsreno

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That is true! I saw Craig's face as he brought back the flask.:pity:

Ramon:)
 

Hien

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Yes. I bought a flask of hangianum and then returned it to the vendor. It was a very hard decision to return it, but I did.

Craig
I have to admit that I truly admire your strong conviction.
I would not be able to act similarly if in the same situation..
 

SlipperKing

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Yes. I bought a flask of hangianum and then returned it to the vendor. It was a very hard decision to return it, but I did.

Craig
I'm assuming the vender didn't have the legal paperwork inorder to sell here in the US?
 
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Ernie

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Yes. I bought a flask of hangianum and then returned it to the vendor. It was a very hard decision to return it, but I did.

Craig
!!! You're a better person than most Craig. Your secret was safe with us. :)

-Ernie
 
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Slipperhead

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Flasks of various species and especially their hybrids i.e. "Fruit of the Forbidden Tree" were abundant.

Anyone see the bareroot plants and large photos advertising them?

Hangs and Helenae? Hmmm.....there may be photos...;)

I simply don't understand how this could be allowed on the "world stage"!
 
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jacamarorchids

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If the WOC was in Canada those plants would be fine! sure is funny how it is up to each country how they wish to enforce the rules of CITIES. My local society had just obtained a CITIES permit to import paph species for our spring show. helenaes and hangs are on the list of plants that are being legally imported. all you need to do is move to Canada and you can have anything you want!

Bryan
 

rdlsreno

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If the WOC was in Canada those plants would be fine! sure is funny how it is up to each country how they wish to enforce the rules of CITIES. My local society had just obtained a CITIES permit to import paph species for our spring show. helenaes and hangs are on the list of plants that are being legally imported. all you need to do is move to Canada and you can have anything you want!

Bryan
I wish!!

Ramon:)
 

Kyle

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Whose the vendor? Is this the Victoria or Vancouver show?

Kyle
 
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jacamarorchids

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Kyle
it is the Victoria Show, Sun moon is the vendor. I dont think that Orchid fest or Vancouver have the CITIES import permits so if you want anything I can get it for you at the Victoria Show and then bring it to the Orchid fest if you are going to be there or mail them to you

Bryan
 

WolfDog1 (C. Williams)

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The vendor was Sun Moon. They did have CITES paperwork which they used to get the plants/flasks cleared through US Customs. I also saw seedlings of hangianum for sale the day I returned the flask. This was days after US Fish and Wildlife told them to stop selling both the plants and the flasks. However, US Fish and Wildlife are not police. I suspect they may have been able to confiscate the plants/flasks, but as far as I know they did not.

From my conversations with the head of the US Fish and Wildlife the issue was not the CITES paperwork, that paperwork was fine and did in fact list the plants on it, thus clearing the way for them to be imported into the USA. However, for the USA, the issue is that the country of Vietnam has advised our country that there have been zero plants of hangianum 'legally' exported from their country. Well, that would make all these hangianum plants from Taiwan 'illegal' under the US interpretation of CITES.

So, although it was hard to return them, it was what I felt I had to do. I don't want to increase the pressure on the wild populations of these plants and thus do not want to support people who take them without permission.

Craig
 
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DavidH

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Craig brings up an interesting point. The other point that needs to be brought up is that the USA considers Taiwan as part of China and some of these particular vietnamese plants are found along the China / Vietnam border area in the Chinese region. Therefore, plants transferred from mainland China to Taiwan do not require CITES, per the convention, because they're considered the same country and instead of Vietnam, the vendors would only need documentation that it came from mainland China, which since they're the same country, means only that they need to say it came from China and the plants are artificially propagated. Flasks are exempt from CITES.

FWS basically has a very tough legal problem. Since the plants were allowed into the country, the worst case scenario is that FWS can say they're illegal and take them, but they could easily be required to reimburse the individual for their expenses because it's a governmental mistake. I've legally imported hangianum with CITES paperwork and a lawyer friend of mine reviewed everything and gave me the opinion that FWS would be hard pressed to even make a case if the plants are scientifically documented as growing in both China and Vietnam (which hangianum is). Since Taiwan is now a signatory to CITES, FWS would basically be stating that another country's legal paperwork is not legal, while the worldwide body says it is. FWS would have to "prove" the plants came from Vietnam, which is pretty much impossible without extensive DNA testing of plants found in Vietnam (which by most accounts no longer can be found).

Hence, FWS tries to make their stand, but they aren't enforcing it because the legal issue is such a Catch-22 that they would most likely lose in federal court and this would force a policy change upon FWS, which they're understandably reluctant to do.

So, the lesson for the day is DON'T buy Vietnamese paphs, because they're illegal....ONLY buy Chinese paphs (that are found on both sides of the border) with legal paperwork from a Chinese supplier.

Clear as mud?
 

WolfDog1 (C. Williams)

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DavidH, well said on all of those points. I believe you are correct about FWS as well. I suppose some of those reasons may be why they did not confiscate the plants at the 19WOC, but again my assumption. I wish I had hangianum, and someday I will.

I also heard that there is a Chinese lab that is propogating them and it's not too long before they will arrive in the US without any legal issues at all.

Thank you for taking the time to 'clear' all of that up for everyone as much of that is what my discussion with the FWS director was all about.

Craig
 

NYEric

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Wow. returning the flask was a strong statement. I admire your conviction; but how does returning the flask decrease pressure on the wild population. The more plants that are grown the less pressure there should be on the wild plants, IMO.
 
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Ernie

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the USA considers Taiwan as part of China and some of these particular vietnamese plants are found along the China / Vietnam border area in the Chinese region. Therefore, plants transferred from mainland China to Taiwan do not require CITES, per the convention, because they're considered the same country and instead of Vietnam, the vendors would only need documentation that it came from mainland China, which since they're the same country, means only that they need to say it came from China and the plants are artificially propagated. Flasks are exempt from CITES.?
One BIG misconception is that flasks are legal (per your last sentence). This is very untrue. The parents of the plants in the flask MUST have been acquired with full, documented permission of the government under whose jurisdiction they were collected. Rod Grabel made it 100% clear that Vietnam has released ZERO hangianum, helenae, tranlienianum, or vietnamense meeting this criteria. He also stated that China has NOT YET released any of the "border" species, but are in the process of doing so.
 

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