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So I see how bad it is, but what can be done to reverse it? I don't think it's exactly as simple as sending a check to a smuggler and wishing them a happy hunt. :)

What charities exist (WWF, Greenpeace) that are actively attempting to save not just orchids, but the environment they inhabit?

What plants need to be cultivated in collections, or face extinction? Let's make a list.

Have species of orchids been identified as extinct already? What were they?
 
PHRAG said:
So what specifically are the regions where cutting is destroying habitat as we speak?

All of Tropical America, except those that were done before you began this conversation. I can speak about Peru.

In reality it is not the lumber companies nor the persons supplying them with lumber that threaten orchid habitat. If you can accept that trees can be harvested without habitat destruction, then you see that "lumbering" in the rainforest is not clear cutting. But that is another subject.

The cutting of trees in Peru for lumber is not what is destroying the rainforest. Family subsistence farming is the root of the destruction. In Peru any Peruvian can claim (for free) 30 hectares of land. All they need do is clear a portion of it and live on it. In the past generally most families would clear about 5-10 hectares to grow enough crop to live off of, the rest remained in forest. In the last few years the trend has changed and the new educated (schooled) generation are taking it a step further. Farm more, make more money. But the only part they ever achieve is to clear cut (slash and burn) their entire 30 hectares. And they work very hard doing it. They soon realize they can't care for that much farm land and leave to seek their "fortune" working in a city. They never make their fortune by the way.

Along the route of the new Trans Amazonian Highway which crosses the department of Madre de Dios and Cusco there is as we speak massive clear cutting of land that has more orchids than you can imagine. This land is worthless for farming except to grub out a meager existence. It is being cut and burned in an order to simply claim the land in anticipation of the coming road. A small shack is built and no one ever moves in. But the land now belongs to someone. It has put "paper" wealth into someones portfolio.

It is a shame the orchid species cannot be harvested and sold. But in the name of conservation they can not. Imagine standing on a dirt road and looking up a grassy mountainside that rises 3000 feet and realizing that all the grass is actually millions of orchid plants. It is still there today but will be gone soon. I can guarantee you that hillside has more than one unknown orchid specie on it.

Orchids could be harvested sustain ably buy Peruvian families, A family only needs (wants) $5 per day beyond their 2 hectare farm to live. But then those folks in charge of INRENA and the rest of the government would not hold title to the land if we made that happen.

CITES made this happen in Peru.
 
Lance,
That was fantastic. I'm currently writing a little paper on a similar subject (the human rights implications of preservation-only policies) for an ethics class. Do you mind if I quote you once or twice?
 
Unfortunately the problem is MUCH bigger than that John. The orchids are but one piece of an incredible and intricate puzzle. Deep Jungle made a great example of this, but it was about Brazil nuts.

Brazil nuts exist because they produce seeds. These seeds are produced because the flowers are pollinated by a certain species of bee. These bees exist because they reproduce. To find a mate, they "perfume" themselves with the scent of an orchid that grows in another area(Gongora species I think). The orchid grows large enough to bloom because conditions exist where environmental conditions exist to allow it and the symbiotic fungus required for it's seeds to sprout. If the orchids died out, the bees would soon follow, and ultimately so would the brazil nuts.

Many orchids do not just rely on growing conditions like humidity, rain, and shade in the wild, but an enormous amount of other factors such as pollinators and symbiotic funguses.

Don't get me wrong, there are charities that exist to buy up land, but the amount bought to be habitat compared to the amount deforested is quite astounding.

Jon
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MERCEDES-BENZ 380 SPECIFICATIONS
 
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PHRAG said:
Have species of orchids been identified as extinct already? What were they?

I will say that alot of the Pleurothallids are extinct... often times, the herbarium specimen made as an entry for either another no-named new species or newly described species, is the only existing plant of that taxon (described or not). I am almost sure there are hundreds (if not more) extinct orchid species that we don't know about... there are a few that we knew about, but they went extinct. A good example was a new species of Spiranthes discovered off an exit ramp here in Florida. The plant died, and no other plants can be found. It is completely gone.

Also, just for information sake, Corallorhiza and Hexalectris are able to grow in cultivation. I have seed propagated both genera, and hope to get my hands on some of the rarer species seeds (like Hex. warnockii)... I think also someone from University of Florida seed propagated Hexalectris (finally).

This is an interesting thread! :)

-Pat
 
PHRAG said:
So I see how bad it is, but what can be done to reverse it? I don't think it's exactly as simple as sending a check to a smuggler and wishing them a happy hunt. :)

The smuggler is only the middle man. If you want to reverse it you need to put the income and benefit into the hands of the rural people. Make the harvest, sale and export of orchids legal under controlled conditions. The conditions must be controlled and available to anyone not just a few nurseries. Of course this won't achieve the goal, no system will work because of human nature.


What charities exist (WWF, Greenpeace) that are actively attempting to save not just orchids, but the environment they inhabit?

Forget it! All big conservation organizations are corrupt or at least horribly wasteful. At least once they reach into the countries of need they are. Sometime over a campfire I would be happy to tell you how they function. If you really Want to help you must personally get your money to the source. It can be done. I do know of one man in Peru who has made his 30 hectares an orchid sanctuary. He refuses to sell an orchid. He even has control of an uncollected site of P.kocvachii. At his own expense he pays a guard to protect the trail. Send him your unsolicited donation. I'm sure every country has someone that would make good use of a donation, but not the big NGOs

What plants need to be cultivated in collections, or face extinction? Let's make a list.

Holy cow! don't make the list on paper or even print it out. :(

Have species of orchids been identified as extinct already? What were they

Just because no scientist can find one during their 2 week research expedition does not mean they are extinct. But CITES will argue that point.
 
kentuckiense said:
Lance,
That was fantastic. I'm currently writing a little paper on a similar subject (the human rights implications of preservation-only policies) for an ethics class. Do you mind if I quote you once or twice?

Quote me all you like and ask any specific questions you like. We lived and worked for years in the midst of this bad problem. We have many friends that are on both sides of the scale.
 
So now that I feel like complete garbage for eating a fat steak tonight in my air conditioned apartment, and looking in on the orchids that were purchased with enough money to support an entire third world family for years, I begin to wonder why I keep asking questions.

I feel like sh*t.
 
PHRAG said:
I was thinking about this. With CITES regulations preventing the collection (or at least making it more subversive) of orchid species from the wild, does that mean that some species might possibly disappear from collections alltogether?

Yes.

Have some already?

Many hybrids certainly have disappeared over a short time. Without the influx of wild genetic stock in breeding programs most species will eventually be reduced to a state where they are no longer representative of wild plants or compatible with the wild habitat. They become genetically engineered species


Is that a bad thing and in which cases?

Is it bad if a specie disappears from collections? Some people may believe you should not have an orchid collection. To them it would be a good thing.

If you remove a specie from visibility it soon becomes unimportant to the human society as a whole. So in that case it is a bad thing.

I'll use wolves as an example. If photographers had not published so many beautiful photographs of captive (tame) wolves they would not be so popular today. The striking images inspired people to support reintroduction. Now wolves run wild in North America after "extinction".

Orchids (and other plants) play an important role in conservation. CITES lists them so they must be important. (figure of speech). But CITES does not conserve, people do. You asked (later in this thread) where you could donate money for orchid conservation.... You did not ask this because orchids are known to be going extinct. You asked because you like orchids, because you have a visible connection to them. If the person who first showed you an orchid had not had an orchid perhaps you would not be concerned about conserving them.

So is it bad if we loose one specie from the collective collections?
I say yes, what do you say?

Which species no longer appear in any sort of sustainable wild habitat and depend on human intervention to prevent them from extinction?

I bet no one really knows the answer to this.

Does line breeding change plants enough that re-introducing them into the wild would be a bad idea in the instance that someday a species faces extinction?

This question surely will get a lot of different opinions.

If your intention is to reintroduce a missing part of the natural world to recreate the original then the answer has to be yes. Line bred plants are not the same as naturally bred and evolved species. They are different, they will surely have different flowers. But I would imagine the original pollinators will pollinate them. Do they have the needed vigor to survive in a natural habitat? I doubt they do after extended selective breeding.
If you have plants in captive culture then the species is never really extinct is it? It may be extinct in nature but it still exists living in a different habitat (your windowsill).

So when you ask if line bred species are good or bad for preventing extinction you first must decide on what the point is. Do you just want to make sure there are red besseae along all mountain roads to mimic what was? Or do you want to preserve a failing specie for the sake of it? You can't stop specie extinction by planting line bred plants. But you can create a jump in natural selection and evolution. Maybe skips and jumps are the role of the hominids in evolution.

Let's discuss.

OK! :clap:
 
Heather said:
Yeah, how many are killed, or eradicated by clear-cutting?

One for each star in the Milky Way. :sob:
But "clear-cutting" implies logging. That is a small part of the whole problem of human population expansion.

Heather, you've said you want to visit Peru. You should go see for yourself how many orchids are being destroyed. You can see it from the car window.
 
PHRAG said:
I can honestly say I never saw this discussion going that route. Though, it doesn't surprise me. : )

Anyone want to discuss what the orchids will look like a million years from now when the effects of the asteroid that hit us wear off?

They are going to have hair on their heads, two legs, two arms and be writing on a forum about whether to breed that weird little human specie.
 
Lance, I'm so glad you don't just lurk anymore!

gonewild said:
Maybe skips and jumps are the role of the hominids in evolution

I couldn't agree more. It's been said before how wise orchids are, what better pollinator could you target?

Jon
________
List of engines
 
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Ok, so now I feel a tiny bit less like sh*t. But not much.

So how does one go about supporting the purchase of preserves in Peru, and beyond? If that is the best course of action that I can in some way be involved in, and I have to believe that it is, how do I start?

I am also going to give in to one point made above, that I never thought I would be saying. If the line breeding and hybridization of plants for awards draws more people into the orchid community, and that in turn gets more people involved in trying to fix the problems that we are discussing here, then I guess line breeding and orchid showing is a good thing. That could be a mighty big if, but there you go, I have eaten my hat.
 
silence882 said:
Too.... many.... issues....

As I understand CITES, Zach's right. The treaty provides guidelines, but the signatories are responsible for its interpretation and enforcement. In order to import plants, a valid export permit from the originating country is needed. How closely this is followed and how easy it is to circumvent the rules depends on the country.

A lot of countries don't allow people to collect orchids from future logging / agricultural / etc. sites. They argue that the collectors might stray from the doomed area and use it as a cover for collecting outside the lines. This argument, to me, is insanely naive and reckless. (e.g., The US state governments make aquiring permits for collecting from future logging sites extremely difficult).

Overall, collecting is a shadow of the threat that deforestation poses.

--Stephen

You are right on Stephen.

I'd like to add that even if the originating country allowed the collection of wild plants and and issued export permits there is a problem. The USDA does not allow import of wild collected plants. This means the collected plants would need to be grown and propagated in the foreign country. This takes the process beyond rural people and into the arms of corruption.
 
PHRAG said:
I am also going to give in to one point made above, that I never thought I would be saying. If the line breeding and hybridization of plants for awards draws more people into the orchid community, and that in turn gets more people involved in trying to fix the problems that we are discussing here, then I guess line breeding and orchid showing is a good thing. That could be a mighty big if, but there you go, I have eaten my hat.

Exactly John, exposure is everything. Your average person barely knows what an orchid is, let alone cares about their future existance. If you can make people aware of something and they like it, they are much more likely to care and do their part to help. This is why I will always admire Steve Irwin. I can't find the quote I'm looking for, but basically he always said if you can make people passionate about something, that is the best way to encourage conservation.

Jon
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TOYOTA PUBLICA SPORTS HISTORY
 
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Well, I admitted it could be a good thing, but that doesn't mean I want to do it. : )

I still want a greenhouse full of first generation orchids.
 
PHRAG said:
So now that I feel like complete garbage for eating a fat steak tonight in my air conditioned apartment, and looking in on the orchids that were purchased with enough money to support an entire third world family for years, I begin to wonder why I keep asking questions.

I feel like sh*t.

Whoa! Time for an attitude adjustment!
Don't feel in any way shape or form ashamed for your good fortune. You ask questions because you can. Obviously orchids are taking you on a journey in life. Maybe a vision quest?

The day you and your peers quit asking questions is the day orchids are for sure to become extinct.
 
PHRAG said:
Ok, so now I feel a tiny bit less like sh*t. But not much

So stop feeling sorry for yourself and get busy.:poke:

So how does one go about supporting the purchase of preserves in Peru, and beyond? If that is the best course of action that I can in some way be involved in, and I have to believe that it is, how do I start?

As host (or co host?) of this forum you have an audience. So you are already in motion to take a step.

You have now caused me to think and you might regret it. :evil:

I mentioned the person in Peru who has a private orchid reserve. He has land near Moyabomba and has created the reserve with his own resources. I believe he is trying to personally do exactly what you were getting at, creating a place where orchid species can grow wild and be protected. I don't know if he has ideas of reintroduction in the future but his concept sure does create a specie bank. I do not know if he needs money (of course he does). I don't think he is wealthy, I think he is just a man with a dream.

Why not make a forum project and offer to sponsor his efforts? A little money would go a long way. Just remember this is your idea.

I am also going to give in to one point made above, that I never thought I would be saying. If the line breeding and hybridization of plants for awards draws more people into the orchid community, and that in turn gets more people involved in trying to fix the problems that we are discussing here, then I guess line breeding and orchid showing is a good thing. That could be a mighty big if, but there you go, I have eaten my hat.

It is not an if! Take a poll, how many people now in love with orchids got started with a hybrid from the supermarket?
(Don't really take a poll, I hate polls)
 
PHRAG said:
Well, I admitted it could be a good thing, but that doesn't mean I want to do it. : )

I still want a greenhouse full of first generation orchids.

First generation specie or hybrid orchids?

But you like bonsai. In the "tree world" bonsai are more like hybrid orchids than species. They are created by humans. You like them for their beauty and what the represent not for the specie of plant they are. Si or No?
 

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