Strange behaving Phragmipedium dalessandroi

[cnycharles]

are you sure that this is a seedling? I would be surprised if anything that large turned out to be d'alessandroi. how many besseae were ever that large and vigorous from seedling stage? am curious to see what it turns out to be, though!

 

[Roth]

The plants from Ecuagenera if that's the ones I think those are were not seedlings, but wild collected plants... ( as usual with them anyway). I do not think they had any hybrids ( except what they import for the local pot plant market...).

It can well be a dalessandroi, I have seen such plants at the Eric Young that were that big. I tend to think that there are more types of besseae/dalessandroi than the botanists and people think. For me the crappy single flowered plants sold as dalessandroi for years were clearly not dalessandroi, despite the chromosome count. Years ago as well, people sold besseae Zamore Paute, Ecuador... and in fact for years, nearly no one could get a besseae in Peru ( Arias used to import those from Ecuador). Recently they have been rediscovered, and there are some very interesting things in those new wild plants, including another flavum apparently.

 

[Lars Pedersen]

When I got it, it was flowerig size. But not bigger than an average besseae.
That was in april 2010.

I have 4 more plants, also dalesessandroi, All of them from Mundiflora, also in Cuenca, and all are divisions of wild plants they had permission to collect when they started up.

I bought 5, so I thought that I had a bigger chance of getting the real thing after several years of buying besseae labeled as dalessandroi.
Some of the others are showing potential too, so maybe next year ......


Lars

 

[Kavanaru]

very nice... interesting development on this plant....

 

[Lars Pedersen]

A flower is opening now, and more will follow in the comming days

Well, there is no doubt in my mind anymore. It is a Phrag. dalessandroi.

I have not studied the flower yet, but the facts that the leaves are up to 6,5 cm wide and up to 39 cm long from base to tip, and flowers comming out in the right angle all point in the right direction, acording to Kyles fine description.

More pictures when all flowers are open.... hopefuly at the same time.

I am happy.

Lars

 

[Shiva]

You should be! You're a very lucky guy.

 

[NYEric]

Show me when its open all the way, please.

 

[SlipperFan]

Where is that jealous smiley?!!

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Phrag. dalessandroi

Just a small update.

No doubt any more. It is a dalessandroi true to the type.

I will post more when fully open.


Lars

 

[Roth]

I have never seen a plant like that since Alan Moon showed those to me in 1993... This explains too why I always remember the tetraploid 'besseae' from the Eric Young as having massive leaves, branching spikes... I think that tetraploids out of your plant would be really interesting... It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...

I remember that Don Wimber told me in those days that the caryotypes were way different between what they called the Besseae Zamora, Paute, and new type in those days. Not only the counts, but the morphology by itself.

It was nearly 18 years ago.

 

[Trimorph]

Really a great plant, I like the multibloom!
Would like to take it too

Trimorph

 

[Shiva]

It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...

It may be so, but in my opinion, one extraordinary plant doesn't mean all the other dalessandroi are not really dalessandroi.

 

[cnycharles]

nice plant!

 

[Rick]

I have never seen a plant like that since Alan Moon showed those to me in 1993... This explains too why I always remember the tetraploid 'besseae' from the Eric Young as having massive leaves, branching spikes... I think that tetraploids out of your plant would be really interesting... It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...

I remember that Don Wimber told me in those days that the caryotypes were way different between what they called the Besseae Zamora, Paute, and new type in those days. Not only the counts, but the morphology by itself.

It was nearly 18 years ago.

We don't consider polyploids of rothschildianum (or any other described species) to be different species. So why would a tetraploid, giant dalessandroi, be a different species from the normal smaller dalessandroi?

You have mentiond both long and short leaf sanderianums found in Borneo, but didn't declare them different species.

Watusi and Pigmy in Africa are both still Homo sapiens.

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Hi

I dont know if it is a tetrapoid plant. If it is, it is a natural one.

The thing I have been looking at, is that it looks like these:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34367

The top one is the typeplant for Phrag. dalessandroi.
The spike with branches, the flowers, and that all flowers open at the same time, makes me think that it is the same plant.

I too have not seen these plants, other than on the photos on the above link.
They are from Jersey like Roth says.
And that is the real mystery to me... is it because they are not around in collections ?

I Think there is alot more to be Said in the besseae / dalessandroi / Jersey diskussion, but I know too litle about it to sort it out.


The important thing is that finally I have got it, after many years of searching.
I will try to self it and make it availible to other growers.


Lars

 

[cnycharles]

it seems that the type plant and this one could be tetraploid, with the smaller versions just ones with 'normal' chromosomes? could be that a larger (tetraploid) plant caught the eye first and was described before the normal version?

 

[NYEric]

Put me on the list.

 

[Roth]

It may be so, but in my opinion, one extraordinary plant doesn't mean all the other dalessandroi are not really dalessandroi.

One plant yes, but at the time of Alan Moon, who 'got' the first dalessandroi, they got quite a lot of jungle dalessandroi.

Some others were growing at De Wilg, all very, very big plants.

When the Eric Young made the colchicine treatment of those dalessandroi, the plants were even bigger than Lars plant, the leaves were wider than my hand... But the original wild plants were absolutely massive, nothing to do with the besseae-size plants sold under the name of dalessandroi.

We don't consider polyploids of rothschildianum (or any other described species) to be different species. So why would a tetraploid, giant dalessandroi, be a different species from the normal smaller dalessandroi?

You have mentiond both long and short leaf sanderianums found in Borneo, but didn't declare them different species.

Watusi and Pigmy in Africa are both still Homo sapiens.

The story is a bit more complcated. In fact Don Wimber made a lot of chromosome countings, and he found that some of the 'besseae' did have 2n=28. The plants were very strong, with branching spikes, and the backbone of the EYOF Phrag breeding. They were described afterwards as 'dalessandroi'. He made Phragmipedium Jersey ( besseae x dalessandroi, 2n=24 x 2n=28), that were absolutely sterile at their diploid stage, but the colchicine converted plants (tetraploids...) were fertile. So at that time it confirmed that dalessandroi and besseae were definitely different species.

Afterwards, those giant dalessandroi disappeared. Many plants were sold under the name of dalessandroi, about the size of a besseae, and people were looking at the staminodium... OK... that's besseae. OK that's dalessandroi. Chromosome counts were made 'again' on those small plants sold as dalessandroi, and found to be 2n=24.

As no one saw again a besseae or dalessandroi with 2n=28, the people just said that Don Wimber made a mistake when counting the original dalessandroi, end of the story. No explanation why the first Jersey made at the EYOF were sterile, nothing.

Now, with Lars plant, I would be very curious to know its chromosome counting, and I would suspect it to be 2n=28. That's why I say that it would be the first time that genuine dalessandroi appear after 20 years, because since that, all the 'dalessandroi' sold had the same chromosome number as besseae...

it seems that the type plant and this one could be tetraploid, with the smaller versions just ones with 'normal' chromosomes? could be that a larger (tetraploid) plant caught the eye first and was described before the normal version?

No, Don Wimber counted the big dalessandroi, 2n=28.... Besseae 2n=24. People said he made a mistake ( he was however the father of the colchicine treatment, chromosome counting for orchids, and scientific breeding of orchids), because all dalessandroi known since had 2n=24. Having known Don Wimber, I know he would not make such a mistake, that's why I am sure Lars plant would be 2n=28 and a 'real' dalessandroi.

All those early EYOF besseae, dalessandroi, etc... disappeared from everywhere, though they were available. Alan Moon offered to me dalessandroi and besseae at the WOC Glasgow, then a couple of years later. They had hundreds of seedlings There were as well amazing longifolium, with flowers maybe 30 cm, and hundreds of hybrids. I saw heaps of them sold at orchid shows in England for the next 4-5 years. Then no more, nowhere. That's why I do not believe a species can survive in cultivation for very long, because none of those original dalessandroi from the EYOF, their progeny, etc... are around anymore.

As an aside the Besseae flava original one had micronuclei, and some chromosome were clearly damaged. It existed a kind of violet colored besseae that died shortly after having been introduced from the wild. I saw once a picture at the EYOF. It existed too besseae with very big transparent windows in the pouch, from top to bottom, I saw those at the Eric Young, they had maybe a dozen wild plants of it back then. That would be really interesting to get many more old EYOF photos of besseae, etc... to see how things were at that time...

 

[Lars Pedersen]

Hi again

I contacted the Eric Young Orchid Foundation, to try to clear things up.

Nice people, but obviously none from back then, when they had the plants photographed by Olaf.
Nobody could enlighten me.

But I got one important answer. Colchicine treatment would not make a plant mulifloral.
It will make a bigger plant, and bigger flowers yes, but it wil not make it go from sequential flowering to multi flowering.

So I have no reason to believe it is a tetraploid.
I know of no one who can make a count.....

Does anyone know if the plants Dennis found was multi floral ?
And does any pictures exist of his original collected plant ( and maybe habitat ? )

I have been looking for this plant for many years, so I will do some research....... I think there is a lot more to be said about the besseae / dalessandroi complex.

I will try to self it, and make some flasks.

Kind regards
Lars

 

[Roth]

Hi again

I contacted the Eric Young Orchid Foundation, to try to clear things up.

Nice people, but obviously none from back then, when they had the plants photographed by Olaf.
Nobody could enlighten me.

But I got one important answer. Colchicine treatment would not make a plant mulifloral.
It will make a bigger plant, and bigger flowers yes, but it wil not make it go from sequential flowering to multi flowering.

So I have no reason to believe it is a tetraploid.
I know of no one who can make a count.....

Does anyone know if the plants Dennis found was multi floral ?
And does any pictures exist of his original collected plant ( and maybe habitat ? )

I have been looking for this plant for many years, so I will do some research....... I think there is a lot more to be said about the besseae / dalessandroi complex.

I will try to self it, and make some flasks.

Kind regards
Lars

No one at the Eric Young knows anymore the story of most of EYOF plants, only the books, but the 'real' story, no one. Alan Moon has been 'retired', Martin Ahring passed away, and most of the people around the ealy 90's are not there anymore, Don Wimber passed away too, John Hainsworth died a decade ago...

Your plant is definitely a diploid.

The original plants of dalessandroi came from Henry Azadehdel himself. He brought those in around 1986-1987 ( he was arrested with more dalessandroi in his suitcase in 1987, the beginning of the end). He supplied some to Germany as well, and to the Netherlands. I got the story from Norman Heywood, who was a customer of Henry at a point, and the owner of Orchid Sundries in England, and got it confirmed by some people at the Eric Young.

For some years, no one knew where he got many of his plants from. Boscha Popow knew some parts, but for some others Henry Azadehdel worked with several other people.

It is worth noting that Azadehdel was not exactly the random poacher that many people think. He was selecting very, very carefully all the plants, of course to get more money out of them, but most of the plants he supplied got awards or were award quality. Afterwards started a massive flood of paphs and phrags, good or bad quality flowers... no one cared anymore. Anyway.

The last thing, apparently Azadehdel had connections with some highly influential people from former USSR. There are UFO's reports, and some reports about the phone line etc... that are weird and would make him look like a mythomaniac, but the real, true, fact, he had access even in a very closed Vietnam or China, to remote area forbidden to even non resident, could travel freely, pick up plants, buy. Where in the Vietnam of the early 80's it was not 'so easy' to be mild.

I know as well he went to Mozambique, helped by people from the Frelimo, a marxist organization, linked tightly to former USSR, and brought back amazing aerangis rhodosticta, etc...

Dennis D'Alessandro supplied them at a point too, and he supplied some genuine dalessandroi as well later on. For habitat original pictures, you know, to be honest... now it is possible to travel really to the sources, jungle, wild. In those days, it was damn expensive, not worth it, so most of those 'plant hunters' hunted the plants at the local nurseries in the major cities and not so major cities. Paphiopedilum henryanum came originally from a woman, who still has photos of Henry Azadehdel with her at her nursery (now long time closed) in Hanoi. She got them from a trader, who got them from the collectors... Many plants have never been seen in their habitat until recently. Some have not yet been seen, or only by a very few people. And in some cases, I have seen amazing things, but the collectors would never allow anyone to bring a camera, or even a handphone with possible GPS to the location.

Afterwards, we started to get a lot of things under the name besseae, dalessandroi... some hybrids as well and the situation became a real mess.

What would be really interesting is to make chromosome counting of Lars plant, some dalessandroi in the trade, and some besseae, and see what's going on.