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Hien

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troy

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Yeah, ouch!! The rusult could be a first blooming, culture, or spraying chemicals, I find that happens on small plants that bloom
 

Tom-DE

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I agree with Rob.

For complex hybrid(bulldog Paphs) , it doesn't matter if it is remade or selfing, deformations will occur in a high percentage even for the modern time. In the old days, only few seedlings from the same batch had produced decent flowers.........when you mix three or more species together, the compatibility is going to be a problem. People have tried to remake P. Winston Churchill countless times, but none of them could match the two FCC clones. It is not easy to produce good complexs IMO.
 

littlefrog

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Some things are easier than others, and I agree complex is hard. Usually complex x species (for example fairrieanum or charlesworthii) turns out uniformly decent. Complex x complex is an exercise in frustration. If you can get enough fertility to do it, consider yourself lucky if 50% are passable, you might get 1 or 2 excellent results out of a 100 seedlings.

If you can find a division of Winston Churchill 'Indomitable' or 'Redoubtable', buy it. Regardless of the cost. I just bought a $6000 worth of a collection and I'm most pleased that it has a nice Indomitable in it. Worth it! Actually there is some other really good stuff in there, I was just really excited to see the paph.
 

Tom-DE

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Rob, so glad to hear there was a nice Indomitable included in your recent big purchase and I am also a lucky one to own a piece of this fantastic clone.... Indomitable is indeed very hard to come-by and it is a must-have if you love complexs. Seeing the flower in person is quite an experience.......
 

Paphluvr

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Obviously selfing an awarded plant does not guarantee an awardable result. I personally do not like complex Paphs. and these should never have been put up for sale. Hard to believe someone would try to sell this crap.
 

Hien

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Rob, so glad to hear there was a nice Indomitable included in your recent big purchase and I am also a lucky one to own a piece of this fantastic clone.... Indomitable is indeed very hard to come-by and it is a must-have if you love complexs. Seeing the flower in person is quite an experience.......
strange universe , synchronicity,
as you guys mention the FCC clones, someone in New Jersey let go of both of the FCC clones together ( divisions) for 499
actually there is a "BEST OFFER" option as well, so maybe there is a chance to get them with an even more affordable price .
however I see on the shipping description that the buyer has to pick them up.
Since I don't collect complex bulldog paph, I pass on the info as a lead to any slippertalk member who collects awarded complex paph ,lives in New Jersey or another state but close enough to get them .

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Paphiopedi...FCC-AOS-Redoubtable-Indomitable-/263385990911

I wonder if the seller is our fellow Slippertalk member as well?
 

Tom-DE

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can't say the plants look "fresh"(perhaps they are recently divided), but it is still a really good deal for "that" price.
 

Leo Schordje

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Flower quality in complex Paphs has a very large degree of dependance on culture. I had a division of Hellas 'Westonbirt' FCC/RHS the old standby. As a one or two growth division in a 3 inch or 4 inch pot the flower was a real yawn. Not very good. Then I saw Warton Sincler's division of Hellas 'Westonbirt' and was knocked out. The flower was HUGE, full and round. Warton's plant was in a one gallon nursery pot, and it was only 6 growths, but the plant was so beefy, so well grown that the 6 growths looked almost rootbound for the gallon nursery pot. (pot roughly 6 inches diameter by 6 inches deep). Culture is really important, especially in complex paphs where deformities are common if conditions are not idea.

By the way, this was quite a few years ago, as Warton has been out of orchids for decades now. But it is a lesson I remember.
 

Tom-DE

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While I would also emphasize/agree on the importance of culture, however, many of the deformations are caused by genetic problems, specially for bulldog Paphs., and that is a historical fact.
 
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tim

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Interesting you should choose Winston Churchill as an example. There are a number of significant clones of Winston Churchill resulting from sibbing 'Redoubtable' and 'Indomitable'. These, termed F2, include clones like 'Atlas', 'Commonwealth', 'British Enterprise', 'Eminence', and 'Wyndmoor'. Wilson liked Winston Churchill so much that he repeatedly sibbed them, and 'British Enterprise' was awarded at the same time as its parents. There are also sibbings of these, resulting in a number of unawarded clones, but very nice, that I saw in the collection of Robert Ernst; the awarded clone 'First Minister' S/CSA, is an exceptionally fine F3, with 6.5 cm wide petals, and far nicer than either 'Redoubtable' or 'Indomitable' and other clones like 'Santa Barbara' and 'Red Jamboree' are F3 clones as well.

In addition, other instances where complex paphs have been sibbed and selfed, often repeatedly, have resulted in fine offspring. When Paeony 'Regency' and 'Rufus' were sibbed, F2 clones like 'Debonaire', 'Clover' and 'Mulberry' resulted. Ratcliffe in fact more or less stopped using 'Regency' in subsequent registrations as a parent, and switched to using F2 clones because they exhibited much improved stem length over 'Regency'. In fairness, I don't know if 'Mulberry' is F2 or F3.

Paph. Hellas 'Westonbirt' has been selfed and sibbed now into the 6th generation; F2 plants include 'La Buena Tierra Sunset' and 'Treva', F3 plants include 'Sunset' and 'Rex', F5 plants include 'Brown Eyes' and 'Jane', and F6 plants include 'Tokyo.' I'm sure I'm forgetting some, as I'm writing from memory.

Lastly, Paph. Valerie Tonkin, when sibbed ('Althea' x 'Dove', according to Val herself), resulted in an AQ grex, with 14 clones exhibited at once, demonstrating a significant improvement in complex paphs. Many of the subsequently awarded Valerie Tonkin clones result from F2 and F3 crossings; I have made both F3 and F4 Valerie Tonkins, which are seedlings still.

Other grexes with significant inbreeding (usually in F2 or F3) include Pacific Shamrock, Stone Lovely, Gege Hughes, and Emerald Lake.

So, in my opinion, making selfings and sibbings of complex paph grexes is a very important goal in making fine paphs. Unfortunately, as with all complex paph crosses, a significant number of very low quality offspring result. Gauging the results of a complex cross, sibbing, or selfing, from just a few offspring is not effective, as every complex cross will result in some very ugly flowers. That's what the compost pile is for!
 

Tom-DE

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"Interesting you should choose Winston Churchill as an example. There are a number of significant clones of Winston Churchill resulting from sibbing 'Redoubtable' and 'Indomitable'. These, termed F2, include clones like 'Atlas', 'Commonwealth', 'British Enterprise', 'Eminence', and 'Wyndmoor'. Wilson liked Winston Churchill so much that he repeat......... In addition, other instances where complex paphs have been sibbed and selfed, often repeatedly, have resulted in fine offspring............."

First of all, I didn't intent to use Winston Churchill as an example to make my point--many complex Paphs have deformations...even if you use name clones as parents. You are right, there are other fine WC clones out there, but in my opinion, they are not nicer than "Imdomitable" or even "Redoubtable" FCC. I am not saying all the FCC clones are better, but then again there is reason why FCC is FCC, not silver medal or other awards.




"So, in my opinion, making selfings and sibbings of complex paph grexes is a very important goal in making fine paphs. Unfortunately, as with all complex paph crosses, a significant number of very low quality offspring result. Gauging the results of a complex cross, sibbing, or selfing, from just a few offspring is not effective, as every complex cross will result in some very ugly flowers. That's what the compost pile is for!"

I agree! and that is more or less like what I said previously.
 

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